{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1983", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1983, "subject": "The Conciliator", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "1999-11-24T14:07:50+00:00", "last": "1999-11-29T09:25:54+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-11-24T14:07:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Conciliator", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan Rabin wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is POWERFUL STUFF! These events woudl not seem to their witnesses to\nbe just a sequence of unconnected supernatural-appearning tricks. Rather,\nthey would seem to be a divine intervention against Typhon by a power far\ngreater that heals and succors rather than imposing rule. Ymar's rule,\nprophesied by the Conciliator, would derive its legitimacy from the\nconnection. Indeed, we learn over the course of _New Sun_ that the quest to\nbring the New Sun is the central feature of the Autarchy. The fact that the\nAutarches have Hierodules as advisors is an enactment of Severians\n\"conciliation\".<<\n[snip]\nPerhaps the fact that we see these events through Severian's eyes rather\nthan those of the populace is what makes all seem so inconsequential.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From what we are shown in the text, the Conciliator was known to most people\nof the Commonwealth in Severian's time, but his cult was not widely\nestablished; that is, people had heard of him but he was not the center of a\npopular religion. The Pelerines and their like were relics of a faith in\ndecline, if it had ever been catholic. More importantly, whenever the\nConciliator was mentioned, usually in terms of being or bringing the New\nSun, it was done in a manner suggestive of Someone who would somehow bring\nabout a renewal of Urth--who would make well again the weakened sun and\nusher in an era of peace, plenty, and prosperity. The analogy is with the\nJewish concept of the Messiah current in some quarters two millennia ago.\nThe Messiah was to be an earthly ruler, a temporal authority over a kingdom\noverflowing with milk and honey on earth, not some celestial everafter.\n\nNowhere--absolutely nowhere in NEW SUN--is there even a hint that the coming\nof the Conciliator is conceived of as an eschatological event. So far as the\ncoming of the New Sun is known to the people of Urth, it is a good\nthing--for them. The man on the street had no inkling that he and all he\nknew and loved would have to die for someone else to get to heaven--that is,\nUshas.\n\nHad the people of Urth known that they would have to pay the price of\ncomplete obliteration for a \"sin\" that wasn't even theirs, and if they had\nhad a choice in the matter, I have little doubt what their choice would have\nbeen. The feeble attempt at rationalization at the phony trial by having\npeople whom Sev had wronged elect to fight on his side, thus tipping the\nbalance of justice in favor of the New Sun, is just that--feeble. All but\nGunnie were aquastors; aquastors are only of the dead; the dead have nothing\nto lose. They weren't real.\n\nThe psyches of the aquastors come from memory--Sev's memory. They existed in\nhis memory as he wanted to see them, idealized to suit his notions of\nJustice and Right. He hardly knew some of the people--little Severa he had\nnever even met. And they all forgave him--sure, that's human nature, very\nbelievable.\n\nOh, and happy birthday Alex.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-11-24T22:29:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Conciliator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Roy C. Lackey\nThe analogy is with the\nJewish concept of the Messiah current in some quarters two millennia ago.\nThe Messiah was to be an earthly ruler, a temporal authority\nover a kingdom overflowing with milk and honey on earth,\nnot some celestial everafter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a fascinating point, Roy. It dovetails with the idea of Sev as\nChrist _figure_ rather than the second coming of Christ himself. And\nsuggests a different angle on what the book is \"about\" - here's what a\n\"worldly\" messiah would look like, fellas; how do you like it?\n\nFWIW, there are some interesting parallels with what the Branch Davidians\nactually believed (as opposed to the caricature of their beliefs in the\npopular press) about a sequence of Anointed (Christos) through history." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nowhere--absolutely nowhere in NEW SUN--is there even a hint\nthat the coming\nof the Conciliator is conceived of as an eschatological event.\nSo far as the\ncoming of the New Sun is known to the people of Urth, it is a good\nthing--for them. The man on the street had no inkling that he and all he\nknew and loved would have to die for someone else to get to\nheaven--that is, Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I might plead \"insufficient evidence\" on this one. Certainly Talos knew,\nthough of course he's a little freak - the whole purpose of his play was to\nget the eschatalogical nature of the New Sun across to folks. Well, and to\nget people to drop their goodies and run in fear, but is that really a\n_different_ thing? \n\nSo Talos is Minister of Propaganda for the Other People, which returns us\nto a question I still have no answer for: Why are a bunch of folks who live\nin the water all worried about the prospect of a flood? And they're\nsupposedly the enemies of humanity in general, or they should stop\nconfusing people by attacking our ships. So why is it any skin off their\nnose if most of Urth's population is wiped out?\n\nOkay, Erebus rules the pole and his domain would shrink, so he has a\nmotive. Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure why Erebus is still alive in the\nfirst place. If he's a giant and he's living on the Antarctic land mass -\nwe're told his namesake mountain is his seat of power - why hasn't he\ncollapsed into a puddle of bile and bone meal already?\n\nI think awhile ago, someone suggested that they were all leary of the\naltered saline content that would characterize the new oceans. But this\ndoesn't, um, wash. (Bad Jim!) Juturna seems happy to swim way up Gyoll, and\nBaldanders heads first for Lake Diuturna before, at some presumed later\ntime, entering the ocean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Had the people of Urth known that they would have to pay the price of\ncomplete obliteration for a \"sin\" that wasn't even theirs, and\nif they had\nhad a choice in the matter, I have little doubt what their\nchoice would have been." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm less convinced. My personal reaction would be, \"I'd rather not drown\nthank you.\" What's more, tonight I seasoned a strip steak with black and\ncayenne pepper, seared it in a cast-iron skillet, poured a quarter-cup of\ndilute bourbon over it and finished it in the oven for five minutes at 400\ndegrees. Then I salted it and ate it hot. We can't afford that kind of meal\nevery night in the Henley household (it was on sale!), but right now the\nidea of living off algae in my bloodstream holds little appeal. Green Man,\nphooey.\n\nNevertheless, we've seen groups of people embrace their own deaths in the\nname of religious fulfillment and we'll see it again before we're dead. A\nwhole world without New Sun dissenters? Probably not. Would it be wrong to\nproceed in the face of objections from 49% of the population? For the sake\nof ten just men? One? I have my own answer, but if there _is_ a god, what\nis my answer worth?\n\nWhich reminds me: this very existential question (if there _is_ a god, what\ndo our human standards of ethics matter) is explored to terrific effect,\nIMHO, in a movie of the last decade called THE RAPTURE. I recommend it as\nsupplemental material for our studies in recent threads." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The feeble attempt at rationalization at the phony trial by having\npeople whom Sev had wronged elect to fight on his side, thus tipping the\nbalance of justice in favor of the New Sun, is just that--feeble. All but\nGunnie were aquastors; aquastors are only of the dead; the dead\nhave nothing to lose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An excellent point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The psyches of the aquastors come from memory--Sev's memory.\nThey existed in\nhis memory as he wanted to see them, idealized to suit his notions of\nJustice and Right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Likewise.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n ******************************************\n\"What fades in time Costello/\nwill hurt much more\" Bacharach, \"My Thief\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-11-26T15:01:07+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Conciliator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:29 PM 11/24/99 -0500, you wrote:\n\nOkay, Erebus rules the pole and his domain would shrink, so he has a\nmotive. Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure why Erebus is still alive in the\nfirst place. If he's a giant and he's living on the Antarctic land mass -\nwe're told his namesake mountain is his seat of power - why hasn't he\ncollapsed into a puddle of bile and bone meal already?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tInteresting. In Dante, Satan is in a block of ice at the center of the\nearth. Hell is frozen. Make Erebus a Satan-figure then. Does Satan want\nhumanity annihilated, or does he want them to worship him? The latter.\nPerhaps that's why Erebus and his minions oppose any New Sun.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Henley", "address": "jlhenley at erols.com" }, "date": "1999-11-27T12:01:41+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Conciliator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On\nBehalf Of Jim Jordan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, Erebus rules the pole and his domain would shrink, so he has a\nmotive. Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure why Erebus is still\nalive in the\nfirst place. If he's a giant and he's living on the Antarctic\nland mass -\nwe're told his namesake mountain is his seat of power - why hasn't he\ncollapsed into a puddle of bile and bone meal already?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tInteresting. In Dante, Satan is in a block of ice at the\ncenter of the\nearth. Hell is frozen. Make Erebus a Satan-figure then. Does Satan want\nhumanity annihilated, or does he want them to worship him? The latter.\nPerhaps that's why Erebus and his minions oppose any New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good job, Nute: that's two out of three, and an excellent two. The Urthes\nsay that everything in the saga has three levels - the science-fictional\n(plot/world) significance, the literary (allusive) significance and the\nreligious significance. Your theory does nicely for the latter two: alas,\nit still doesn't explain how Erebus survives being land-bound and\ngiant-sized. (One possible explanation: Erebus isn't really a giant.\nAnother: He's a \"chem,\" giant robot division.) Nor does it quite explain\nwhy the warm-water Abaia is in league with the ice-god Erebus. But you've\nreduced the number of things I worry about by one, for which I thank you.\n\nBest,\n\n\nJim\n *****************************************\n\"It ain't the knife thru your heart that tears you apart\n it's just the thought of someone sticking it in\"\n -- Graham Parker, \"Protection\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1999-11-29T09:25:54+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Conciliator", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 12:01 PM 11/27/99 -0500, you wrote:\n\n. The Urthes" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "say that everything in the saga has three levels - the science-fictional\n(plot/world) significance, the literary (allusive) significance and the\nreligious significance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tGreat summary. Gotta remember it.\n\n Your theory does nicely for the latter two: alas," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it still doesn't explain how Erebus survives being land-bound and\ngiant-sized. (One possible explanation: Erebus isn't really a giant.\nAnother: He's a \"chem,\" giant robot division.) Nor does it quite explain\nwhy the warm-water Abaia is in league with the ice-god Erebus. But you've\nreduced the number of things I worry about by one, for which I thank you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tDunno. But, Satan is frozen in a block of ice, as I recall. Mebbe old\nErebus is in some similar state: immobile, and operating through agents.\n\tAs to the league with Abaia, I dunno. Frankly, the three times I read\nSeverian were years ago, and I really need to reread them in the light of\nall the kinds of things other people have called attention to. I'm really\nan observer when it comes to the Abaia-Erebus business, for I did not read\nwith that question in mind.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }