Subject: (urth) The Conciliator

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 14:07:50 +0000

Dan Rabin wrote:
[snip]
>>This is POWERFUL STUFF!  These events woudl not seem to their witnesses to
be just a sequence of unconnected supernatural-appearning tricks.  Rather,
they would seem to be a divine intervention against Typhon by a power far
greater that heals and succors rather than imposing rule.  Ymar's rule,
prophesied by the Conciliator, would derive its legitimacy from the
connection.  Indeed, we learn over the course of _New Sun_ that the quest to
bring the New Sun is the central feature of the Autarchy.  The fact that the
Autarches have Hierodules as advisors is an enactment of Severians
"conciliation".<<
[snip]
>>Perhaps the fact that we see these events through Severian's eyes rather
than those of the populace is what makes all seem so inconsequential.<<

>From what we are shown in the text, the Conciliator was known to most people
of the Commonwealth in Severian's time, but his cult was not widely
established; that is, people had heard of him but he was not the center of a
popular religion. The Pelerines and their like were relics of a faith in
decline, if it had ever been catholic. More importantly, whenever the
Conciliator was mentioned, usually in terms of being or bringing the New
Sun, it was done in a manner suggestive of Someone who would somehow bring
about a renewal of Urth--who would make well again the weakened sun and
usher in an era of peace, plenty, and prosperity. The analogy is with the
Jewish concept of the Messiah current in some quarters two millennia ago.
The Messiah was to be an earthly ruler, a temporal authority over a kingdom
overflowing with milk and honey on earth, not some celestial everafter.

Nowhere--absolutely nowhere in NEW SUN--is there even a hint that the coming
of the Conciliator is conceived of as an eschatological event. So far as the
coming of the New Sun is known to the people of Urth, it is a good
thing--for them. The man on the street had no inkling that he and all he
knew and loved would have to die for someone else to get to heaven--that is,
Ushas.

Had the people of Urth known that they would have to pay the price of
complete obliteration for a "sin" that wasn't even theirs, and if they had
had a choice in the matter, I have little doubt what their choice would have
been. The feeble attempt at rationalization at the phony trial by having
people whom Sev had wronged elect to fight on his side, thus tipping the
balance of justice in favor of the New Sun, is just that--feeble. All but
Gunnie were aquastors; aquastors are only of the dead; the dead have nothing
to lose. They weren't real.

The psyches of the aquastors come from memory--Sev's memory. They existed in
his memory as he wanted to see them, idealized to suit his notions of
Justice and Right. He hardly knew some of the people--little Severa he had
never even met. And they all forgave him--sure, that's human nature, very
believable.

Oh, and happy birthday Alex.

Roy

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

---

From: Jim Henley <jlhenley at erols.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 1999 22:29:20 +0000

> -----Original Message-----
> From: urth-errors at lists.best.com [mailto:urth-errors at lists.best.com]On
> Behalf Of Roy C. Lackey
> The analogy is with the
> The Messiah was to be an earthly ruler, a temporal authority
> over a kingdom overflowing with milk and honey on earth,
> not some celestial everafter.

This is a fascinating point, Roy. It dovetails with the idea of Sev as
Christ _figure_ rather than the second coming of Christ himself. And
suggests a different angle on what the book is "about" - here's what a
"worldly" messiah would look like, fellas; how do you like it?

FWIW, there are some interesting parallels with what the Branch Davidians
actually believed (as opposed to the caricature of their beliefs in the
popular press) about a sequence of Anointed (Christos) through history.

> knew and loved would have to die for someone else to get to
> heaven--that is, Ushas.

I might plead "insufficient evidence" on this one. Certainly Talos knew,
though of course he's a little freak - the whole purpose of his play was to
get the eschatalogical nature of the New Sun across to folks. Well, and to
get people to drop their goodies and run in fear, but is that really a
_different_ thing? <g>

So Talos is Minister of Propaganda for the Other People, which returns us
to a question I still have no answer for: Why are a bunch of folks who live
in the water all worried about the prospect of a flood? And they're
supposedly the enemies of humanity in general, or they should stop
confusing people by attacking our ships. So why is it any skin off their
nose if most of Urth's population is wiped out?

Okay, Erebus rules the pole and his domain would shrink, so he has a
motive. Unfortunately, I'm not quite sure why Erebus is still alive in the
first place. If he's a giant and he's living on the Antarctic land mass -
we're told his namesake mountain is his seat of power - why hasn't he
collapsed into a puddle of bile and bone meal already?

I think awhile ago, someone suggested that they were all leary of the
altered saline content that would characterize the new oceans. But this
doesn't, um, wash. (Bad Jim!) Juturna seems happy to swim way up Gyoll, and
Baldanders heads first for Lake Diuturna before, at some presumed later
time, entering the ocean.

> had a choice in the matter, I have little doubt what their
> choice would have been.

I'm less convinced. My personal reaction would be, "I'd rather not drown
thank you." What's more, tonight I seasoned a strip steak with black and
cayenne pepper, seared it in a cast-iron skillet, poured a quarter-cup of
dilute bourbon over it and finished it in the oven for five minutes at 400
degrees. Then I salted it and ate it hot. We can't afford that kind of meal
every night in the Henley household (it was on sale!), but right now the
idea of living off algae in my bloodstream holds little appeal. Green Man,
phooey.

Nevertheless, we've seen groups of people embrace their own deaths in the
name of religious fulfillment and we'll see it again before we're dead. A
whole world without New Sun dissenters? Probably not. Would it be wrong to
proceed in the face of objections from 49% of the population? For the sake
of ten just men? One? I have my own answer, but if there _is_ a god, what
is my answer worth?

Which reminds me: this very existential question (if there _is_ a god, what
do our human standards of ethics matter) is explored to terrific effect,
IMHO, in a movie of the last decade called THE RAPTURE. I recommend it as
supplemental material for our studies in recent threads.

> The feeble attempt at rationalization at the phony trial by having
> Gunnie were aquastors; aquastors are only of the dead; the dead
> have nothing to lose.

An excellent point.

> Justice and Right.

Likewise.

Best,

Jim
 ******************************************
"What fades in time                           Costello/
will hurt much more"                        Bacharach, "My Thief"

---

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 15:01:07 +0000

>collapsed into a puddle of bile and bone meal already?

	Interesting. In Dante, Satan is in a block of ice at the center of the
earth. Hell is frozen. Make Erebus a Satan-figure then. Does Satan want
humanity annihilated, or does he want them to worship him? The latter.
Perhaps that's why Erebus and his minions oppose any New Sun.

Nutria

---

From: Jim Henley <jlhenley at erols.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:01:41 +0000

> Behalf Of Jim Jordan

Good job, Nute: that's two out of three, and an excellent two. The Urthes
say that everything in the saga has three levels - the science-fictional
(plot/world) significance, the literary (allusive) significance and the
religious significance. Your theory does nicely for the latter two: alas,
it still doesn't explain how Erebus survives being land-bound and
giant-sized. (One possible explanation: Erebus isn't really a giant.
Another: He's a "chem," giant robot division.) Nor does it quite explain
why the warm-water Abaia is in league with the ice-god Erebus. But you've
reduced the number of things I worry about by one, for which I thank you.

Best,

Jim
 *****************************************
"It ain't the knife thru your heart that tears you apart
  it's just the thought of someone sticking it in"
              -- Graham Parker, "Protection"

---

From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 09:25:54 +0000

At 12:01 PM 11/27/99 -0500, you wrote:

. The Urthes
>religious significance.

	Great summary. Gotta remember it.

 Your theory does nicely for the latter two: alas,
>reduced the number of things I worry about by one, for which I thank you.

	Dunno. But, Satan is frozen in a block of ice, as I recall. Mebbe old
Erebus is in some similar state: immobile, and operating through agents.
	As to the league with Abaia, I dunno. Frankly, the three times I read
Severian were years ago, and I really need to reread them in the light of
all the kinds of things other people have called attention to. I'm really
an observer when it comes to the Abaia-Erebus business, for I did not read
with that question in mind.

Nutria