{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1984",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 1984,
    "subject": "Religion of Middle-Earth",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1999-11-24T14:36:14+00:00",
    "last": "1999-11-24T14:36:14+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0028-0535@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Mitchell A. Bailey",
        "address": "mab at lindau.net"
      },
      "date": "1999-11-24T14:36:14+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) Religion of Middle-Earth",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "At the risk of being exiled to the (nonexistent) Tolkien list, I'll\ninterject a comment or two here."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Ouroboros wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "I also, recall him [Tolkien] conceding that ..there was no real Religion in\nMiddle Earth ...let alone a Judeo-Christian one."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "although the world of Middle Earth has no overt worship or ritual\nthat's not quite the same thing as saying that there is no religion."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Tolkien's Arda is pre-Mosaic, and almost certainly antediluvian. The\nrevealed Catholic church to which Tolkien and Wolfe did/do belong is in\nArda's far future, so Tolkien could deal in a hypothetical primeval\nfaith in Iluvatar unadorned by Noahic or Mosaic revelation, much less\nChristianity as we understand it.\n\nThere actually ARE scattered suggestions of religious observances: the\nfestival at which the faithful Numenorean Kings would ascend the\nMeneltarma to meditate on the blessings of Eru, the \"Standing Silence\"\nobserved by the inhabitants of Minas Tirith before meals. \n\nHowever, there is no Church and no priests. It would appear that a\nMelchizedekian fusion of priesthood/kingship may have occured with the\nNumenoreans and their successors. The only suggestions of highly\norganized religion were evil; Sauron's corruption and deception of the\nfallen Numenoreans which led them to appoint him a high priest of Melkor\nand practice human sacrifice on their behalf, for instance."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "One profound difference between Middle earth and our world is that\nManwe and the Valar knew Illuvatar and the Eldar knew the Valar \n...\nIndeed\n'faith' is not required when any passing elf could supply you with\nthe chief angel's address."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": ".."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Again\nfaith becomes moot if one can board ship and visit the Increate's\nservants."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "But with Tolkien, it didn't really work that way, did it? Morgoth,\nSauron, and the Balrogs, and eventually Saruman, were all originally\nAinur who once had participated in the Music of the Ainur and dwelt in\nthe presence of Iluvatar Himself. Yet they rebelled and fell. Feanor\ndwelt in Valinor in the favor of Manwe and Aule, yet revolted readily\nfor the sake of his baubles. His kin likewise rebelled against the\nValar, either as allies or in despite of Feanor. The Numenoreans in\ntheir turn broke faith, rebelled, and fell , literally."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "... Today God or the Increate is not susceptible to proofs of\nreality. What might change if at some future date it were otherwise?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Much more competent critics than myself have argued that Tolkien's Arda\ncycle is one big exploration of the role of individual faith in the\ndivine agenda and of the free will/predestination paradox. To Tolkien,\nat least, there would be no \"proof\" until all could stand in the\npresence of Eru at the End.\nAnd I think that the same message can be found in Wolfe, esp. in Long\nSun. The people of Urth have overlain the deity behind the Conciliator\nwith chiliads of tradition and dogma and theological sophistry (rather\nlike the smothering of the Old Sun), but the Increate, outside mortal\ncomprehension, is still back there behind all. And more plainly, LS's\naptly named Outsider bypasses dogma and the superfluous computer Windows\nto directly inspire Silk, priest of the artificial religion formed\naround Typhon's simulation. There is the intercessory Church (or the\nmanteion, or the hypostases and pantocrators and heptarchs), and there\nis the occasion to bypass the intercessor and deal directly with God."
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}