{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/1997", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 1997, "subject": "Infrared, light and darkness", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "1999-12-01T13:06:31+00:00", "last": "1999-12-02T10:18:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-12-01T13:06:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Infrared, light and darkness", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding the infrared star notion, Mark Millman wrote:\nClever thought, mantis, but I can't swallow that idea. Master Ash\ntells us that ice covers the entire globe in his time, which implies\na cooling process. Hallvard and Typhon confirm this. If loss of\nplant life affected Urth's albedo so that more solar radiation were\nreflected, cooling might result, but a) such a change in albedo\nthrough loss of plant life seems unlikely, and b) even if there were\nsome such change, so extreme an effect seems beyond the range\nof possibility." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well now, I didn't mean to imply that there was no cooling going on at all!\nJust trying to de-couple visible light from heating light; to allow a\nhabitable zone to exist where canonical astrophysics insists that it cannot\nbe naturally; to allow a black sky at noon, yet breath-enabling atmospheric\npressure (even in the mountains) and jungles of dying vegetation (dying\nover a thousand years or more! This ain't no Nuclear Winter/killer\nmeteor/sudden death scenario); etc.\n\nBut it is just another idle thought, over-reading a simple romantic\nconceit, trying to envision how such a metaphor could be made concrete.\n\nWhat Mark Millman wrote about black holes leading to other universes (and\nthe strictly hypothetical \"white hole\") is clearly the theory used by Wolfe\nin the early 80s for his muscularly retroscientification of a scenario\nglimpsed by H.G. Wells in the 1890s, developed by Clark Ashton Smith, and\nrefined by Jack Vance. So at this point, we should just use the theory of\nthe text as bolstered by the theory of its day.\n\nThe black hole in Abaddon (subspace) leads to a white hole in Briah (normal\nspace); the black hole in Briah leads to a white hole in Yesod (hyperspace).\n\nOn to creatures of light and darkness who feed upon stellar energies:\n\nSo much of thinking is by way of analogy. When Severian is thrust out of\nhis claustrophobic nursery and into the larger world of the Commonwealth,\nhe is exposed as an innocent to modes and mores that shape and challenge\nhim (a boon for readers, since we get to learn about his society along with\nhim). We have the sense that he is walking a path between good and evil;\nthat he could fall into evil at various steps along the way (e.g.,\nexecuting Agia after the mine ambush would be a bad thing).\n\nI don't think that the situation changes in URTH. Severian has new powers,\nbut the stakes are higher and the dangers become more pronounced; he is\nmoving as an innocent in a new landscape of godlings. This is not the sort\nof scenario where the hero gets the halo and then all things come naturally\nand easily, no more tears, \"the power was within you all along,\" etc.\nRather, his life-giving miracles are met with cruelty (the Zama episode);\nhis suppressed anger raises a storm; etc.\n\nThus, by analogy: there is some sort of energy circuit that feeds demigods\nand gods (for another Wolfe example: the way that the Earth Mother goddess\nin the Soldier books comes to eat the blood of the human sacrifices--this\nis the Blood Circuit, and it probably plays a much larger part throughout\nWolfe's work than we think at first). We know from the text that Severian\nis being powered by the white fountain (the Claw might be an independent\nregulator or just a dummy light); it seems pretty clear that the light from\nthe white fountain can be blocked by Urth's mass (it needs a direct line of\nsight), and in a pinch Severian can draw from a starship's battery, or even\nsomehow the energy of an earthquake (or was that the energy of sunlight on\nthe ground?). In any event, Severian is something of an energy vampire.\n\nSo the analogy I promised: the great monsters are creatures similiar to\nSeverian (energy vampires), but they have fallen off the tightrope (or have\nchosen to embrace the Entropy side). Severian is always in danger of\nturning into one like them; and even in the end, there is some question of\nwhether he really is any better (or even much different) than they are\n(this is usually writ in shorthand as \"Is he christ or antichrist?\").\n\nSo I'm saying: No new technologies for the monsters, just analogy and\nimplication. But granted: it is easier to envision an energy tap on a\nwhite hole (from which energy is emerging) than one on a black hole (into\nwhich energy is disappearing).\n\nThe mystery of the black hole in the Old Sun remains. The mystery of\nenergy circuits for the great monsters is largely built of conjecture.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "1999-12-02T00:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re:Infrared, light and darkness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis wrote:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thus, by analogy: there is some sort of energy circuit that feeds demigods\nand gods (for another Wolfe example: the way that the Earth Mother goddess\nin the Soldier books comes to eat the blood of the human sacrifices--this\nis the Blood Circuit, and it probably plays a much larger part throughout\nWolfe's work than we think at first). We know from the text that Severian\nis being powered by the white fountain (the Claw might be an independent\nregulator or just a dummy light); it seems pretty clear that the light from\nthe white fountain can be blocked by Urth's mass (it needs a direct line of\nsight), and in a pinch Severian can draw from a starship's battery, or even\nsomehow the energy of an earthquake (or was that the energy of sunlight on\nthe ground?). In any event, Severian is something of an energy vampire.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\n A minor quibble: My take on the earthquake is the exact opposite of\nthat; the earthquake was the effect, not the cause, of the energy exchange.\nSeverian was killed again (or at least should have been; he was hit by a\nbolt of energy from a Star Wars-like weapon), only he can't be killed by\nvirtue of some sort of semi-divine fiat until the New Sun comes, just as he\nshould have died from the beating earlier that night. The text makes clear\nthat Urth is too tired and energy depleted for earthquakes--not to mention\nthe unlikelihood of such a coincidence. However it was accomplished, the\nearthquake was the byproduct of the effort to preserve Sev's life.\n\n This is another incidence of biblical symbology. The mysterious rent in\nthe Curtain Wall and the tilting of the Witches' Tower are paralleled in the\nGospels. According to the Gospels, at the moment of Jesus's death on the\ncross: \"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top\nto the bottom; and the earth did quake,\" (Matt. 27:51).\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "mark millman", "address": "millman at us.ncipher.com" }, "date": "1999-12-02T10:18:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Infrared, light and darkness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:06 PM 01-12-99 -0700, mantis wrote:\nWell now, I didn't mean to imply that there \nwas no cooling going on at all! Just trying to \nde-couple visible light from heating light; to \nallow a habitable zone to exist where canon-\nical astrophysics insists that it cannot be \nnaturally; to allow a black sky at noon, yet \nbreath-enabling atmospheric pressure (even \nin the mountains) and jungles of dying vege-\ntation (dying over a thousand years or more! \nThis ain't no Nuclear Winter/killer meteor/\nsudden death scenario); etc.\n\nBut it is just another idle thought, over-read-\ning a simple romantic conceit, trying to en-\nvision how such a metaphor could be made \nconcrete." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoops! Sorry, mantis; I should have realized that you weren't\nattempting to provide a complete explanation of the phenom-\nenon. I apologize for jumping on you so quickly. Now that I've\nthought about it, your idea does have certain merits, especially \nif the sun's total energy output decreases, resulting in cooling, \nwhile it also suffers a shift driving the spectrum toward the infra-\nred." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What Mark Millman wrote about black holes \nleading to other universes (and the strictly hy-\npothetical \"white hole\") is clearly the theory \nused by Wolfe in the early 80s for his muscu-\nlarly retroscientification of a scenario glimpsed \nby H.G. Wells in the 1890s, developed by \nClark Ashton Smith, and refined by Jack Vance. \nSo at this point, we should just use the theory \nof the text as bolstered by the theory of its day.\n\nThe black hole in Abaddon (subspace) leads to \na white hole in Briah (normal space); the black \nhole in Briah leads to a white hole in Yesod \n(hyperspace)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My purpose had been to point out that the theory in the text is, \nregrettably, undermined rather than bolstered by the theory of \nits day. The idea of the white hole was already on its way out \nwhen Wolfe was writing SotT, to say nothing of UotNS.\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fr.Inire", "address": "inire at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-12-02T08:09:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re:Infrared, light and darkness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis wrote:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thus, by analogy: there is some sort of energy\ncircuit that feeds demigods\nand gods (for another Wolfe example: the way that\nthe Earth Mother goddess\nin the Soldier books comes to eat the blood of the\nhuman sacrifices--this\nis the Blood Circuit, and it probably plays a much\nlarger part throughout\nWolfe's work than we think at first). We know from\nthe text that Severian\nis being powered by the white fountain (the Claw\nmight be an independent\nregulator or just a dummy light); it seems pretty\nclear that the light from\nthe white fountain can be blocked by Urth's mass (it\nneeds a direct line of\nsight), and in a pinch Severian can draw from a\nstarship's battery, or even\nsomehow the energy of an earthquake (or was that the\nenergy of sunlight on\nthe ground?). In any event, Severian is something\nof an energy vampire.<<\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "just had a whild-ass thought: Sev as chem? I had this\nthought back when I first read the book, but no-one\ntreats him as such and I don't recall any other hints\nbut the reliance on a power source, the taking of\nunconventional energy sources....hmmm....\n\n=====\nJeff \"My dice hate me!\" Miller\n\"The idea of verifying facts about\nthe world through controlled repetition seems alien to just about everyone\nwith the _possible_ exception of Fr Inire, and he's a bug-eyed space\nmonster . . .\"-Jim Henley\nHeavy Gear Swap @ http://freecenter.digiweb.com/games/severian/swap.html\nGaming to keep War out of RealTime! '82 GS650G" } ] } ] }