{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/202",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 202,
    "subject": "Tracking gestures inter alia",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "1997-09-12T15:44:46+00:00",
    "last": "1997-09-12T15:44:46+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0004-0296@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Ron Crown",
        "address": "crownrw at slu.edu"
      },
      "date": "1997-09-12T15:44:46+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Tracking gestures inter alia",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "In trying to track down any information on the finger-to-chin gesture\nused in \"Tracking Song,\" I came across a Dictionary of Gestures (yes,\nsuch things exist) which lists no less than 14 meanings for the use of\nfinger to the chin (not all exactly the same gesture); unfortunately,\n\"affirmation\" is not one of them.  Furthermore, native american sign\nlanguage used the index finger pointing straight up and then curling\ndown around the thumb to signify \"yes.\"  So that looks like a blind\nalley so far.  I still think that, whether or not Wolfe was using data\ncollected about actual cultures or not (he came up with new inventions\nfor the stone age, why not new gestures as well?), the gesture is an\nimportant clue for the common origin (dare I say genesis?) of the\n\"tribes\" and the robots'/cyborgs'/jonases'/whatever's use of the same\ngesture implies their relationship with the originators.\n\nOn \"Seven American Nights\" (BTW, nice sequel, alga; how about a\nprequel?), I was looking up info on the Shah Nameh (Book of Kings),\nmentioned by Nadan in the text and discovered that it is the great\nnational epic of Persia (every Iranian child reads it, or I should say,\nreads part of it (since it's roughly 60,000 lines) in school).  The poem\nrecalls a glorious pre-islamic Persia (it was written in the late\n10th-early 11th century well after the islamic conquest) at a time when\nPersia had a Turkish ruler; in fact, it's credited with ensuring that\nthe national language of Persia remained Farsi.  Rostam is one of the\nheroes whose exploits are recounted in the poem; Nadan evidently refers\nto this hero when mentioning the play \"Rustam Beg.\"  Make of that what\nyou will.\n\nThis probably has no significance, but fwiw here it is.  Nadan's\n\"mission\" (if we assume for the sake of argument that he was not simply\na tourist) appears to have had something to do with the \"miniatures\"\nmentioned in passing in the text.  According to one introduction to\nPersian literature I looked at, manuscripts of the Shah Nameh are\nfrequently illuminated with miniatures.  Since both the S.N. and\nminiatures are mentioned in the story; I wonder what might be made of\nthis.  Probably nothing since there's no further evidence to go on that\nI see.  And the use of the word \"miniatures\" alone would be an odd way\nto speak of a manuscript containing \"miniatures.\"\n\nAnother point re Wolfe in general:  Nutria, e.g., talks about the\n\"gestalt\" of a Wolfe story and how the details of the story will not\nfall into place until we grasp the gestalt.  But I don't think I need to\nargue that Wolfe sometimes makes the \"gestalt\" VERY obscure (anyone care\nto enlighten me on \"A Solar Labyrinth?\").  But even second-rate Wolfe\nachieves what I would call the \"illusion of gestalt\" and makes people\nlike me want to chase down info about things like Persian national epics\nand significance of gestures (and I'm not saying that either SAN or TS\nare second-rate) to see if it helps in determining what the gestalt\nmight be.  Maybe I'll (we'll) come up with something, maybe not. But\neven if I don't, a story like SAN or TS is so fully textured that if I\ncan't finally determine its \"gestalt,\" I can imagine that there is one\nthere somewhere; the story \"coheres\" even when I may not understand it\ncompletely.  I think BotNS worked this way for a lot of people; many of\nwhom probably enjoyed the series just fine without ever knowing who\nSeverian's parents were, e.g.  Which is not to say that they couldn't\nenjoy Wolfe even more by digging deeper; I do and that's why I'm on this\nlist.  And if some of us get a little carried away sometimes on the\ndetails, well, Wolfe himself invites it.  And none of us, I think, (not\neven Nutria) thinks he/she is uttering divine revelation.\n\nFrom a walking compendium of useless information (otherwise known as a\nreference librarian),\nRon Crown"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}