{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2023", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2023, "subject": "TBOTNS FAQ", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "1999-12-12T14:05:49+00:00", "last": "1999-12-13T17:48:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christy", "address": "cglst7+ at pitt.edu" }, "date": "1999-12-12T14:05:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) TBOTNS FAQ", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been eavesdropping on this FAQ conversation (though I fear it's\ndying down) and I can't help but feel that there is a skewed approach\nbeing taken to the project.\n\nIs it the duty of the FAQ to initiate one into the \"mysteries\" of TBOTNS?\nOr to initiate one into the method of reading Gene Wolfe? The curious\nsystem of Wolfe infers a lot of assumed knowledge that, time and time\nagain, we have proved that we don't have. So the chance of a neophyte\nhaving it is even slighter.\n\nSo: shan't we we give readers a better sense of Wolfe's background, so we\nknow the mind we are up against when we interpret? Shan't we quote\ninterviews and essays when coming up against the rough stuff? Shan't we\nfamiliarize FAQ users with the Gene Wolfe leitmotifs/literary topoi:\nancient Greeks, British Isles mythology, old school SF, Borges and Poe,\netc? Shan't we stick to solid ground rather than the drag-out debates, for\nexample the continent one?\n\nI would help with the FAQ where needed, and I feel that a lot of us are \nsaying the same. I volunteer =mantis= for the chair. If we were in a big\nCongress and I were sitting next to him, I would raise his hand forcibly\nwhen the issue was raised. After all, he's the only one here who has got a\nbook under his belt, vanity press or otherwise.\n\nIn any case, I feel like the FAQ should tell us something more of Gene\nWolfe, what he has written, what philosophies he has expressed, who he IS \nand how much of himself he has thrown into his work, before any\nspeculation is made to who Severian's parents are and what Wolfe's\npantheons consist of.\n\n\n\n\n\t\t\t\t-C-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "1999-12-12T18:41:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS FAQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christy wrote:\nI've been eavesdropping on this FAQ conversation (though I fear it's\ndying down) and I can't help but feel that there is a skewed approach\nbeing taken to the project.\n\nIs it the duty of the FAQ to initiate one into the \"mysteries\" of TBOTNS?\nOr to initiate one into the method of reading Gene Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither. A FAQ is a list of frequently asked questions and their answers.\nIt is a device invented to prevent people from posting the same question\nover and over in a newsgroup (at which task is has generally been a notable\nfailure) and to relieve other people from having to reply with the same\nanswer over and over or ignore the question (at which task it is a fair\nsuccess; of course the response, \"read the FAQ\" must be posted over and\nover, but this is a lot less effort).\n\n(I am basing the above on my experiences reading newsgroups back when I\nused to do this a lot, years and years ago. Someone else's experiences may,\nof course, be quite different.)\n\nWhat you are talking about, Christy, is not a FAQ. I would say it sounds\nlike a books or at least a collection of essays. Perhaps it is mantis's\nbook; I don't know if he covers all the ground you mention, I haven't yet\ndecided to buy a copy. If it does, perhaps mantis would provide us with a\ngroup discount and send a copy to everyone on this list (lurkers included)\n.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fr.Inire", "address": "inire at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-12-12T15:54:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS FAQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"William H. Ansley\" wrote:\nChristy wrote:\n\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is it the duty of the FAQ to initiate one into the\n\"mysteries\" of TBOTNS?\nOr to initiate one into the method of reading Gene\nWolfe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither. A FAQ is a list of frequently asked\nquestions and their answers.\nIt is a device invented to prevent people from\nposting the same question\nover and over in a newsgroup (at which task is has\ngenerally been a notable\nfailure) and to relieve other people from having to\nreply with the same\nanswer over and over or ignore the question (at\nwhich task it is a fair\nsuccess; of course the response, \"read the FAQ\" must\nbe posted over and\nover, but this is a lot less effort)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tBut I can see where Christy may have gotten that idea\nfrom the 'debate' so far (as i read it, anyway). The\nFAQ is starting to sounds like a episode of Dueling\nDogmas for the list and Wolfean knowledge, and not\nreally an expansive attempt to help experts and\nneophytes alike gain some context or coherency when\nthey have a question about some twist or turn or\nanother. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What you are talking about, Christy, is not a FAQ. I\nwould say it sounds\nlike a books or at least a collection of essays.\nPerhaps it is mantis's\nbook; I don't know if he covers all the ground you\nmention, I haven't yet\ndecided to buy a copy. If it does, perhaps mantis\nwould provide us with a\ngroup discount and send a copy to everyone on this\nlist (lurkers included)\n." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "THAT is an excellent idea. I already have my copy,\nnatch ;->, but it is a useful and comprehensive\nlisting. Philosophy and generalities are not it's\nstrength, but for anyone who took the time to sign up\nfor this list, it is required (IMNSHO).\n\n=====\nJeff \"My dice hate me!\" Miller\n\"The idea of verifying facts about the world through controlled repetition seems alien to just about everyone with the _possible_ exception of Fr Inire, and he's a bug-eyed space monster\n . . .\"-Jim Henley\n\nHeavy Gear Swap @ http://freecenter.digiweb.com/games/severian/meet.html\nGaming to keep War out of RealTime! '82 GS650G" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cass Peterson", "address": "cpete at nb.net" }, "date": "1999-12-12T21:34:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS FAQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christy wrote:\nIs it the duty of the FAQ to initiate one into the \"mysteries\" of TBOTNS?\nOr to initiate one into the method of reading Gene Wolfe? [...]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The latter, please. Some of us neophytes would prefer to discover the \nmysteries on our own, but would be grateful for any planar or other \ngeographies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The curious system of Wolfe infers a lot of assumed knowledge that, time \nand time" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "again, we have proved that we don't have. So the chance of a neophyte\nhaving it is even slighter.\n\nThat's not an entirely safe assumption, albeit a rational one.\n\nCass" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ron Hale-Evans", "address": "rwhe at apocalypse.org" }, "date": "1999-12-12T19:01:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS FAQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Christy wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is it the duty of the FAQ to initiate one into the \"mysteries\" of TBOTNS?\nOr to initiate one into the method of reading Gene Wolfe? [...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The latter, please. Some of us neophytes would prefer to discover the\nmysteries on our own, but would be grateful for any planar or other\ngeographies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What people don't seem to realise, and I keep trying to explain, is that it\nis possible to have *both* a list of hints for reading Wolfe, and a list of\nsuggested answers that do not spoil the fun of neophytes, simply by\nencrypting the answers. Alternatively, one could have one document for\nquestions and hints, and publish the suggested answers in another document\naltogether -- a low-tech, even no-tech way of assuring that people who want\nto see the answers can, and people who don't want to don't have to.\n\nThere's no reason to tailor the FAQ only to novices. Some of us want\nintelligent discussion of substance to arise from this, not just vague\nI-know-more-than-you-do hinting. Those who insist that no answers be\npublished *anywhere* are declaring, \"Someone is having some fun somewhere,\nand this must not be.\" (That's what the Puritan Brother said when he\nlearned there was dancing in Ceylon.)\n\nRon" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Ron Hale-Evans: rwhe at apocalypse.org ... \nCenter for Ludic Synergy: \nKennexions GBG artgame: \nHexagram-8 I Ching Mailing List: \nPositive Revolution FAQ: " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fr.Inire", "address": "inire at yahoo.com" }, "date": "1999-12-12T21:21:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) TBOTNS FAQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Ron Hale-Evans wrote:\n\nWhat people don't seem to realise, and I keep trying\nto explain, is that it\nis possible to have *both* a list of hints for\nreading Wolfe, and a list of\nsuggested answers that do not spoil the fun of\nneophytes, simply by\nencrypting the answers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " For some reason this in practice may be really\ncool, but the I-know-more-than-you thing seems to be\nembedded in the idea of encryption. perhaps the\npractice will be different. One can hope!\n\n Alternatively, one could" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "have one document for\nquestions and hints, and publish the suggested\nanswers in another document\naltogether -- a low-tech, even no-tech way of\nassuring that people who want\nto see the answers can, and people who don't want to\ndon't have to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I can't speak for Christy, but for myself the\nargument is not whether to answer or hint (though\nwould we call the one version FAH for Frequently\nAnswered Hints? ;->). It _is_ about making the info\naccessible, in whatever form it is portrayed, to\neveryone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's no reason to tailor the FAQ only to novices.\nSome of us want\nintelligent discussion of substance to arise from\nthis, not just vague\nI-know-more-than-you-do hinting. Those who insist\nthat no answers be\npublished *anywhere* are declaring, \"Someone is\nhaving some fun somewhere,\nand this must not be.\" (That's what the Puritan\nBrother said when he\nlearned there was dancing in Ceylon.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No Debate there! It should not be dumbed down, but at\nthe same time it need not all be written as if the\nreader is asumed to have read and memorized all of the\nvarious books and events therein. In some FAQs this is\nself regulating; I look for the simple question and\nfind it, satisfied with the info. The advanced\nquestions dazzle me, and some part may be recalled for\nlater, and just having them there makes it accessible.\n\n=====\nJeff \"My dice hate me!\" Miller\n\"The idea of verifying facts about the world through controlled repetition seems alien to just about everyone with the _possible_ exception of Fr Inire, and he's a bug-eyed space monster\n . . .\"-Jim Henley\n\nHeavy Gear Swap @ http://freecenter.digiweb.com/games/severian/meet.html\nGaming to keep War out of RealTime! '82 GS650G" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Christy", "address": "cglst7+ at pitt.edu" }, "date": "1999-12-13T17:48:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: TBOTNS FAQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to Will Ansley for the FAQ definition. There is the certain amount\nof questions that we all could plausibly furnish answers to. \"Who is Gene\nWolfe? Did he invent Pringles? Are there any Gene Wolfe Reading Aids?\nWhere do I get his rare books? Bibliography?\" etc. I don't think that any\nof us are much worried about the answers to these, as they are readily\nand happily corrected, and should not involve a lot of ego.\n\nAh, it is the rest! And here is the heart of the matter: how can we agree\non a body of questions that are indeed pressing, but that can also be\nelucidated by the present body, unified? I daresay I think I know the\nanswer.\n\nThere is a point of diminishing returns in this area, and it is most often\nwhere we are not as learned as Wolfe. We of the list have shown that\nbreaking point, time and time again, sometimes almost comically. Sometimes\nwhere an obscure literary reference or theological wisdom would do, the\nOED or a Greek or Latin dictionary will not suffice. This much is clear.\nWill we ever know how deep the name of Terminus Est truly goes? Probably\nnot. With this, as with most topoi Wolfe delights in, we will never know\nthe whole story, and that's why we love it like children do. And perhaps\nwe can speculate when we look up the sword in a Latin dictionary. But it\nalso helps to know that Terminus was the Roman god of landmarks,\nboundaries.\n\nLikewise, in the Lexicon Urthus, Mantis speculates as to what Universal\nDeath is: common sense generates a few possibilities. But if you read\n\"Universal History\" in Borges' Book of Fantasy, as Wolfe no doubt did, you\ncould eliminate all but one. This is where I feel we have synergy, and\nwhere we can do some real good in interpreting Wolfe: providing a solid\nbase of information (and not as much speculation) from our varied\nbackgrounds and erudition.\n\nWhat I've learned from reading Wolfe is: almost everything, every word,\nhas its place. Wolfe sometimes assumes we have read everything that he\nhas, and as such are equipped to unravel his work with a careful reading,\nbut, more often than not, such is not the case. We do not live in a\nperfect world.\n\nNow I've gotten off the beaten path. The FAQ is a good, great idea, it\ndemands to be done. We already have the Lexicon Urthus and this list.\nPerhaps the best first step is to propose a set of questions. Since Will\nAnsley knows about such things, I nominate him.\n\n\n\n\n\t\t\t\t\t-C-" } ] } ] }