{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2041", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2041, "subject": "The God & His Man, a note & spoilers", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1999-12-17T07:52:30+00:00", "last": "2000-01-09T17:48:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "1999-12-17T07:52:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The God & His Man, a note & spoilers", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I continue to toy with this Urth story (collected in ENDANGERED SPECIES).\n\nIt was the first published work to mention Urth, yet is not an extract from\nTBOTNS (as two other magazine stories were: \"The Tale of the Student and\nHis Son\" and \"Fiola's [sic] Tale: the Armiger's Daughter\"); nor is it\nmentioned in TBOTNS (as is the case with EMPIRES OF FOLIAGE AND FLOWER);\nnor is it given a more detailed context or framing (\"The Boy Who Hooked the\nSun\" is subtitled \"a tale from THE BOOK OF WONDERS OF URTH AND SKY,\" which\nhelps to fit it into place).\n\nAnd the story!\n\nAnyway, I mainly wanted to report a finding. The magic cloak (of\ninvisibility) in the story is called \"Tarnung,\" which struck me as being a\nLord Dunsany-sounding detail, but a quick search on the Internet shows that\ntarnung is German for \"cloak,\" yet it is also used to refer to the painting\npatterns on military airplanes (i.e., \"camouflage\"?).\n\nSPOILERS to follow\n\n\nThe god's name is \"Isid Iooo IoooE\": this looks an awful lot like the\nsacred unspeakable name of the one true Hebrew god (safename \"Jehovah\";\ntoday's true name \"Yahweh\"; ancient magical versions include \"IAOOUE,\"\n\"IAOUAI,\"). Or a Joycean parody of the same name (was it in the nighttown\nsection of ULYSSES where the text takes on the format of a play, and\ncharacter \"God\" says some windy vowels, continued by character \"Dog\" who\nhowls more vowels? A sense of parody might be in the first name, which\nreads \"I said,\" making the whole name a sentance: \"I said, `Iooo IoooE.'\"\nAs if to correct bumbling mortals who heard it as \"Yaweh.\" \"I said\" also\nreminds me of \"I am that which I am\" or somesuch line attributed to God in\nthe Old Testament; also \"In the beginning was the word,\" where this name\nsays something like \"I said the Word.\"\n\nThis god is a starship orbiting plant Zed. (\"Zed,\" as a name for the\nletter Z, suggests the last in a sequence.) Zed has three types of people:\ndesert dwellers (ala Middle East), jungle dwellers (ala equatorial Africa),\nand cold land dwellers (ala Europe). The recently arrived god has\nplans--since he likes the Europeans best, because they are most like him,\nhe is going to engineer their colonization of the planet.\n\nHmmm. That does sound like a criticism of Christian sanction of\ncolonization. Chosen people; conquer in my name; God is on our side.\nEspecially sharp as it traces colonial impulse to the god (which is Yaweh\nor a parody), rather than the \"mankind uses the name of God to unholy ends\"\nline of reasoning.\n\nSpeaking of authorial context, if this story was written by Michael\nMoorcock my interpretation of it would be relatively cut and dry--I have\nread enough Moorcock work that is a variation on this theme, so that I\nwouldn't give it a second thought. Elric and Arioch, that sort of thing:\nwe might call it \"Elric's Revenge.\" When Moorcock takes a swipe at Big\nReligion it is often targeted at Roman Catholicism, but sometimes all of\nChristianity. The name of the god seems rather close to a swipe at the\nJews, which seems uncharacteristic of Moorcock, so I'd transfer this to the\nearly Christian church (and we're back to Catholic bashing). (I can't\nthink of a case where Moorcock writes positively about any religion.)\n\nBut because it was written by Gene Wolfe, and because it was published\nbefore TBOTNS, it serves as a sort of overture to TBOTNS. Which makes it\nvery interesting to me.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-09T17:48:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The God & His Man, a note & spoilers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:52 AM 12/17/99 -0700, you wrote:\n\n\nThe god's name is \"Isid Iooo IoooE\":" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI'll add a thought, which is probably wrong (almost certainly) but may\nspark someone else's thinking. \"151D 1000, I.E.\" Id est, (i.e.,) means\n\"that is,\" and means that 151D 1000 exists. He is (claiming)\nself-existence, which makes his \"death\" at the end more interesting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "this looks an awful lot like the\nsacred unspeakable name of the one true Hebrew god (safename \"Jehovah\";\ntoday's true name \"Yahweh\"; ancient magical versions include \"IAOOUE,\"\n\"IAOUAI,\"). Or a Joycean parody of the same name (was it in the nighttown\nsection of ULYSSES where the text takes on the format of a play, and\ncharacter \"God\" says some windy vowels, continued by character \"Dog\" who\nhowls more vowels? A sense of parody might be in the first name, which\nreads \"I said,\" making the whole name a sentance: \"I said, `Iooo IoooE.'\"\nAs if to correct bumbling mortals who heard it as \"Yaweh.\" \"I said\" also\nreminds me of \"I am that which I am\" or somesuch line attributed to God in\nthe Old Testament; also \"In the beginning was the word,\" where this name\nsays something like \"I said the Word.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIf it's such a parody, then it is a computer PLAYING at being God, and\nthat will have to be taken into account. This ain't no true God, and no\ntrue image of God, as I show below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This god is a starship orbiting plant Zed. (\"Zed,\" as a name for the\nletter Z, suggests the last in a sequence.) Zed has three types of people:\ndesert dwellers (ala Middle East), jungle dwellers (ala equatorial Africa),\nand cold land dwellers (ala Europe). The recently arrived god has\nplans--since he likes the Europeans best, because they are most like him,\nhe is going to engineer their colonization of the planet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tMind - Europeans, and being mental, the computer likes them best.\n\tWill - high desert people, living by their wills\n\tEmotion - jungle people\n\n\tTrue humanity needs all three, as Man realizes, so he kills the false god\nof the computer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm. That does sound like a criticism of Christian sanction of\ncolonization. Chosen people; conquer in my name; God is on our side.\nEspecially sharp as it traces colonial impulse to the god (which is Yaweh\nor a parody), rather than the \"mankind uses the name of God to unholy ends\"\nline of reasoning.\n\n=mantis=" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI think you misread. It is about humanity-in-full, as noted, set out as a\ntale that might well be in Severian's book. The Universe is already \"old,\"\nbut not as old as it will be in Sev's time. Anyway, the final question is\nwhether it is better to live as a slave or die, and the answer is that life\nis preferable, because where there is life their is hope. \n\tThe god-computer seals his doom by giving the wrong preference. He is but\na slave, as Man realizes. He is not any true God, or he would recognize the\nfullness of the image of God in the three kinds (aspects) of people.\n\tI suggest a closer link, conceptually, to the scientismists in Lewis's\n*That Hideous Strength.* They would destroy humanity in the interest of\nabstractions. That is what the computer would do also, and what the\nmental-folk of the cold lands wind up doing. \n\tThe critique is, thus, not of Christianity, but of scientism.\n\tFinally, FWIW,. If we try to link this story specifically with Blue-Green,\nit will have to be a B-G that comes into existence long after it has been\ncolonized by humans -- but still before Severian (if this story is in the\nBrown Book).\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }