{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/206", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 206, "subject": "Soldier Series", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "1997-09-16T12:48:39+00:00", "last": "1997-09-18T08:37:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1997-09-16T13:49:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #7223192 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET00#\n\nXury,\n\nHis real name is Lucius; he is a Latin; he was cursed by the Great\nMother Goddess for messing up her temple during a battle; \"Latro\"\nmeans both \"mercenary\" and \"pawn\" (game piece), and Lucius is\ndefinitely both; and, in the interview words of Gene Wolfe, Lucius\nhas a truly magic sword--\"It cuts things.\" \n\nBut seriously, anything more specific than that, you just go ahead\nand axe--er, \"ask\"! Maybe a few conflicting answers can be found\naround here, I'll bet.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1997-09-16T12:48:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spoilers..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 m.driussi at genie.com wrote:\n\n[Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works]\n\nReply: Item #7223192 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET00#\n\nXury,\n\nHis real name is Lucius; he is a Latin; he was cursed by the Great\nMother Goddess for messing up her temple during a battle; \"Latro\"\nmeans both \"mercenary\" and \"pawn\" (game piece), and Lucius is\ndefinitely both; and, in the interview words of Gene Wolfe, Lucius\nhas a truly magic sword--\"It cuts things.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have all the people straight in my head (it's been a while, and I\nmake all the connections), but Latro is a pawn in the conflict among the\nMother Goddess, the goddess of the Spartans/Rope Makers, Mars (who is\nserved by the Amazons), and is there also a god/goddess of the Athenians?\n\nIn the end, when Latro rides to freedom rather than victory, allowing the\nAmazons to win the race, it seems he is thwarting some of the gods and\nhelping others, but I don't have it all sorted out.\n\nAlso there's the Athenian whose name starts with 'T' who the Spartans give\nall those gifts, apparently to make him look like a traitor and lose power\namong the Athenians.\n\nAnd another scene I didn't catch until Wolfe explained it in an interview:\nThe whole ceremony Latro participates in with the Rope Makers is based on\na real event. When the Spartans gave their slaves arms to help repel the\ninvading Persians, they had this ceremony where they were ostensibly going\nto make them all honorary Spartans, but insted they killed them all,\nfulfilling their policy of never allowing slaves to carry weapons.\n\nIt wasn't clear to me in Wolfe's version if they had intended and failed\nto kill Latro and Seven Lions or if they never intended to kill him and he\nwas sickened and depressed because that meant he was kind of on the same\nside as the people who played such an evil trick. \n\nIn spite of my confusion (part of which is faulty memory), I think the\nSoldier books are my favorite of all Wolfe's work.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Derek Bell", "address": "dbell at maths.tcd.ie" }, "date": "1997-09-16T19:31:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In message <199709161758.KAA19862 at lists1.best.com>, Michael Straight writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Spoilers...\nI don't have all the people straight in my head (it's been a while, and I\nmake all the connections), but Latro is a pawn in the conflict among the\nMother Goddess, the goddess of the Spartans/Rope Makers, Mars (who is\nserved by the Amazons), and is there also a god/goddess of the Athenians?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tUm, yes - Athena. She was the patron goddess of Athens as well\nas their goddess of war and wisdom. The Roman equivalent, Minerva, was\na goddess of the hearth and wisdom. (Romans being male chauvinists and\nnot wanting to give Athens too much importance either.)\n\n\tDerek" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Scott Dalrymple", "address": "scottd at wycol.com" }, "date": "1997-09-16T16:09:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In spite of my confusion (part of which is faulty memory), I think the\nSoldier books are my favorite of all Wolfe's work.\n\n-Rostrum" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to admit that I had trouble with the Soldier books the first time\nthrough. I always knew that Wolfe was smarter than me, but here some\nthings seemed so far over my head that I found it frustrating reading.\nThen I found an unabridged cassette recording of _Soldier of the Mist_.\nHearing that read to me well *really* increased my appreciation (and\nunderstanding) of the book. BTW, I think the company that made the tapes\nwas The Listening Ear, and I also thonk they're defunct now. I found a\ncopy at the Rochester (NY) Public Library.\n\nOn another note: I recently saw a CD-ROM game called City of Lost Children.\n Does anyone know if it has anything to do with the movie that's been\nmentioned here (and which I have yet to find)?\n\nScott Dalrymple" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1997-09-16T20:53:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #7613260 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET00#\n\nRostrum,\n\nRe: Soldier series as your favorite, you are not alone--I've met\nothers who feel the same way, but also a number of people who dislike\nthem for not being accurate enough (in a classicist point of view)\nand get downright irritated at some of the seemingly willful\n\"mistakes.\" I believe SOLDIER OF THE MIST was the favorite one that\nmade Jeremy Crampton start up his fanzine, \"Book of Gold.\" So the\nSoldier series might be the most controversial in having love/hate\ncamps.\n\n(This issue of \"accuracy\" could possibly be leveled against the use of\nmystical terms in TBOTNS, but I haven't seen anybody go much further\nthan Nutria's \"He is just using Yesod for Heaven and Briah for Earth\"\nstatement a few messages back. Because it is true--Gene Wolfe isn't\na Kabbalahist! [Nor am I, for that matter.] I'm impressed by how\nwell he can use such terms as he does. OTOH, the analogy \"Heaven is\nto Yesod as Earth is to x\" would be answered \"Malkuth\" by the novice\nstudent, rather than \"Briah,\" which really is a different catagory--a\nset in which \"Assiah\" makes more sense than Briah, for that matter.\nSo, is this a \"mistake\"? Who knows, but say \"Sure\" just to avoid\npointless argument or senseless speculation on trying to figure it out.)\n\n(All of which returns to the bush of \"Gene Wolfe is writing\nentertaining fictions not educational tracts.\")\n\nFWIW his pagan magic scenes seem to have met with great approval by\nat least one pagan magic non-fiction author, Godwin, who wrote about\nit/them in his book LIGHT IN EXTENSION.\n\nLooking at the interview with Nutria (on the subtopic of the Soldier\nbooks) one can see that Gene Wolfe planned to move ever further away\nfrom the Robert-Graves-under-heroic-self-constraint-of-I, CLAUDIUS\n(as opposed to wild Bill of KING JESUS and THE WHITE GODDESS) and\nfully into the realm of Barry Fell's AMERICA B.C., with ancient\nPhonecians, Romans, Greeks, et cetera cruising around North America\nbefore the advent of Jesus. At which point the classicists would have\nfinally relaxed and said, \"Well, that's what happens when you read the\nNational Enquirer!\" To which Gene would surely quip, \"But I always\nread News of the World first!\" Or something like that, 'cause it's\ntrue.\n\nIt is definitely a challenging text because of the narrative device!\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1997-09-18T08:37:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Soldier Series", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tAs regards the Soldier series, one thing we have to bear in mind is that\nit is incomplete. We'd have lots more problems interpreting Severian if we\nonly had the first two books of the New Sun. \n\tThe other point to bear in mind, which Mantis touched upon, is that Wolfe\nis not committed to \"establishment\" reconstructions of the history and\nchronology of the ancient world, any more than he's committed to\n\"establishment\" views of evolution. (He's Lamarckian.) Speaking as someone\nwho has done some work in this area, I agree with Wolfe: A great many\nsupposed certainties about the ancient world are merely hypotheses that\nhave been repeated too many times. If anyone wants to pursue such matters,\nPeter James's *Centuries of Darkness* (Rutgers U. Press) and David Rohl's\n*Pharaohs and Kings* (Crown) make a good starting point. \n\tAt any rate, there is good reason to think that Troy fell around 800 BC,\nand that the early Romans were indeed Mycenaean Trojans; and very good\nreason to think that Tyreans and other Phoeniceans travelled to the\nAmericas. Also, one has to bear in mind that Hiram of Tyre was a worshipper\nof the God of Israel, and was closely allied to David and Solomon, so that\nthere was Yahwistic influence among the Phoenicians -- something often\noverlooked, but which I would not be surprised if Wolfe picked up on.\n\tWe'll just have to wait and see. Happily, we have been told that Wolfe is\nnow going to complete the series.\n\nNutricious" } ] } ] }