{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2062", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2062, "subject": "One-Two-Three for Me", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2000-01-09T00:29:37+00:00", "last": "2000-01-17T01:24:19+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2000-01-09T00:29:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) One-Two-Three for Me", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Spoilers)\nAll right, taking up the matter of \"One-Two-Three For\nMe\": I haven't assigned it a specifically religious\nmeaning. For me, the story corresponds closely to \"And\nWhen They Appear\", perhaps occurring much later in the\nsame general future. The civilization whose remains\nthe protagonist of \"One\" investigates has, like that\nin \"And When\", committed suicide, apparently from an\nennui born of the loss of meaning of all cultural\nsymbols (including, very prominently, God). In \"One\",\nJak's girlfriend summons up the figure (pusher and\npsychopomp) that brought the killing drug to members\nof the now-dead civilization, in effect placing the\norder by phone. Death is preceded by ecstacy; the\npeople of the past couldn't even face Death square in\nthe face.\n\nJak's own culture is an experiment in averting this\nsyndrome: its members live rough outdoor lives, and\nare supervised in certain crucial respects by AIs or\n\"bots\". Thus their curious mingling of the primitive\n(playing with sticks by the campfire) and the advanced\n(interstellar travel). My suspicion, given the gloomy\ntenor of STRANGE TRAVELERS as a whole, is that this\nformula, which seems Godless, is also doomed to\nfailure.\n\nKey questions: \nWhat is the significance of the numerical sequence\n1-2-3? (Possible answer: it's the simplest possible\nphone number, underscoring the past culture's\npreoccupation with easy death.)\nWhat is one to make of the appearance of the \"pusher\"\n(what we hear of it)?\n\nThat's all for now.\n\n=====" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-09T17:07:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) One-Two-Three for Me", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:29 AM 1/9/00 -0800, you wrote:\n(Spoilers)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jak's own culture is an experiment in averting this\nsyndrome: its members live rough outdoor lives, and\nare supervised in certain crucial respects by AIs or\n\"bots\". Thus their curious mingling of the primitive\n(playing with sticks by the campfire) and the advanced\n(interstellar travel). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tOdd \"sticks.\" When struck they sound like telephone bleeps.\nDunno if I've ever encountered sticks like these.\n\nMy suspicion, given the gloomy" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "tenor of STRANGE TRAVELERS as a whole, is that this\nformula, which seems Godless, is also doomed to\nfailure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tLike CordwainerSmith's \"instrumentality of mankind,\" perhaps." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Key questions: \nWhat is the significance of the numerical sequence\n1-2-3? (Possible answer: it's the simplest possible\nphone number, underscoring the past culture's\npreoccupation with easy death.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tSounds good. Also, the phone number of the Ruler in \"Westwind\"\npredominates in 7s. 123 = 6. Biblically, 6 (and 666, of course) are\ninadequate and flawed numbers, speaking of the death-judgment against Adam,\nwho was created on the sixth day. But your suggestion sounds better; though\nboth might be in view.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Laidlow", "address": "laidlojm at hhs.bham.ac.uk" }, "date": "2000-01-12T15:53:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) one-two-three for me", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh joyous day! Today is the day bookshop.co.uk supplied me with a copy of \n'Strange Travelers'. What fun! And to think, there'll soon be another Wolfe \ntome out. Three books in the space of twelve months. Fantastic\n\nAnyway: to the discussion on 'one-two-three for me' which I read just now. \n\nSPOILERS\u000f\n\n\nNick's exegesis of this difficult tale is excellent, but.\n\nBZZZZZ Challenge:\n\nI like very much what Nick has written, but I would ask for more evidence from \nthe text to support it. I haven't read the companion tale, and while I take the \npoint that so much of Wolfe's work has inter-relations, the short story has to \nwork on its own, especially on original publication (although its nice to see the \ntwo traffic jam/folk singing stories bookending this collection)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nick wrote:\nAll right, taking up the matter of \"One-Two-Three ForMe\": I haven't assigned it a \nspecifically religiousmeaning. For me, the story corresponds closely to \"AndWhen They \nAppear\", perhaps occurring much later in thesame general future. The civilization whose \nremainsthe protagonist of \"One\" investigates has, like thatin \"And When\", committed \nsuicide, apparently from anennui born of the loss of meaning of all cultural symbols \n(including, very prominently, God)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I presume Earth is the major cultural symbol in this tale, although its significances to the \nculture of the protagonists are eroded and indistinct - everything is filtered through the \n'bots'. Jak sees the stars differently when he abandons the 'bot', for example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In \"One\",Jak's girlfriend summons up the figure >(pusher andpsychopomp) that \nbrought the killing drug to membersof the now-dead >civilization, in effect placing \ntheorder by phone. Death is preceded by ecstacy; thepeople >of the past couldn't even \nface Death square in the face." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay - well yes, but where is the evidence that the drug killed this civilisation. The city \nruin is a relatively recent civilisation - what about all the others?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jak's own culture is an experiment >in averting thissyndrome: its members live rough \noutdoor lives, andare supervised in >certain crucial respects by AIs or\"bots\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it all of Jak's culture, or just their excursions to Earth. I wasn't clear whether the \nframing tale of Jak and the kids with the sticks also took place on Earth. The arrival of \nthe figure 'called' on the phone suggests it was, but Jak says 'on Spring walk we went \nback to the old one, back to Earth'. Rather than some specific death by euthanasia \ndevice I think the rediscovery of the phone symbolises a re-entry into dial a convenience \nculture/dial an escape culture, which ultimately brings some kind of spiritual death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus their curious mingling of the >primitive(playing with sticks by the campfire) and \nthe advanced(interstellar travel). My >suspicion, given the gloomytenor of STRANGE \nTRAVELERS as a whole, is that this >formula, which seems Godless, is also doomed \ntofailure.Key questions: What is the >significance of the numerical sequence1-2-3? \n(Possible answer: it's the simplest >possiblephone number, underscoring the past \nculture'spreoccupation with easy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the UK 1-2-3 is the number for the speaking clock..... What does it spell on a US \nhandset with letters? [and I like Nutria's reminder of the difference between six and \nseven as mystic numbers]\nI'm not sure it does symbolise the failure of this culture. It feels more like a folk tale \nwarning to the young to avoid the dangers of the past. They aren't visited by the 'pusher', \nthey merely hear sounds of its awakening, and they quickly destroy the tools (the sticks \nof firewood). Is it too late? The bots claim they've found many phones and so Jak's \nphone is unimportant. Yet they conspicuously place it in his belongings, even though it \nwas found and kept by Jo Ann. Are the bots up to something? Are they spreading the \nseeds of cultural downfall.\nWhich leads to a further point: if the story really is critical of our easy push-button culture \n(as I read the description of the numberpad of the phone I thought first of a TV remote \nuntil I got to the asterisk description) what are we to make of its suggestion that our \nculture is corrupt, decadent, and liable to self-destruct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "death.)What is one to make of the appearance of the \"pusher\"(what we hear of it)?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only descriptive symbol is of hair, isn't it? The yeti is drug pusher? :-)\n\nOne further thought: any other appearances of the telephone in Wolfe's fiction? Must \ninvestigate its use in Castleview.\n\nAnd when oh when is 'Green's Jungles' due out?\n\nJonathan\nVisit Ultan's Library - A Gene Wolfe web resource\nhttp://members.tripod.co.uk/laidlow/index.htm\nJonathan Laidlow\nUniversity of Birmingham, UK" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-01-12T12:49:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) one-two-three for me", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So far, although I just finished \"And When They Appear,\" I think this\ncollection is good but grim, even for Wolfe--who does not tend to be cheery\nat short lengths. I've read \"The Ziggurat\" before, and think it's one of\nhis very best. It seems to me there's an interesting contrast here--a drift\nin theme--Wolfe's always had stories about the collapse of society (\"Paul's\nTreehouse,\" \"Hour of Trust,\" \"Seven American Nights\") and about the prisons\nof identity (\"The Fifth Head of Cerberus,\" \"The Doctor of Death Island,\" etc.)\nand many that are intensely about both, as reflections of each other--internal\nand external collapse (\"Forlesen,\" \"Seven American Nights,\" \"V.R.T\"). I think\nthis collection, so far at least, reflects a drift towards exploration of the\ncollapse of the whole society as opposed to the individual--it seems to also\nshow a change from NEW SUN--these societies, rather than sacrificing their\nemotions/\"humanity\" and going forth to conquer the universe are losing their\nsouls without even conquering anything.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-15T17:31:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) one-two-three for me", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nick wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All right, taking up the matter of \"One-Two-Three ForMe\": I haven't\nassigned it a \nspecifically religiousmeaning. For me, the story corresponds closely to\n\"AndWhen They \nAppear\", perhaps occurring much later in thesame general future. The\ncivilization whose \nremainsthe protagonist of \"One\" investigates has, like thatin \"And When\",\ncommitted \nsuicide, apparently from anennui born of the loss of meaning of all\ncultural symbols \n(including, very prominently, God)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI did not find an implication of ennui in \"And When They Come.\" Open to\nbeing shown, of course. The father simply kills himself and tries to kill\nhis family. I took it that there was a societal breakdown, and roving bands\nof marauders were on the march, and the father was in despair. Moreover,\nthe father brought home some chemical from work, whereas in \"OneTwoThree\nfor Me,\" the situation seems quite different. Same world? I'm having\ntrouble making such a connection. Open to correction. Write back.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2000-01-16T00:22:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) one-two-three for me", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, the similarity of \"1-2-3\" and \"And When They\nAppear\" relates simply to the notion of cultural\nsuicide: after all, the wealthy elite in \"And When\"\nclearly has ample technological resources, surely\nenough to defeat a mob like \"Carker's Army\", yet they\nseem content to die off futilely as individuals,\nJefferson with his rifle, the father by poison.\nThey've become demoralized, their cultural symbols\nhave degenerated into mechanical phantoms. What would\nrescue humanity from this disaster? Answer: the regime\nintimated in \"1-2-3\". But that's still not good\nenough..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Jim Jordan wrote:\nNick wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "All right, taking up the matter of \"One-Two-Three\nForMe\": I haven't\nassigned it a \nspecifically religiousmeaning. For me, the story\ncorresponds closely to\n\"AndWhen They \nAppear\", perhaps occurring much later in thesame\ngeneral future. The\ncivilization whose \nremainsthe protagonist of \"One\" investigates has,\nlike thatin \"And When\",\ncommitted \nsuicide, apparently from anennui born of the loss\nof meaning of all\ncultural symbols \n(including, very prominently, God)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI did not find an implication of ennui in \"And When\nThey Come.\" Open to\nbeing shown, of course. The father simply kills\nhimself and tries to kill\nhis family. I took it that there was a societal\nbreakdown, and roving bands\nof marauders were on the march, and the father was\nin despair. Moreover,\nthe father brought home some chemical from work,\nwhereas in \"OneTwoThree\nfor Me,\" the situation seems quite different. Same\nworld? I'm having\ntrouble making such a connection. Open to\ncorrection. Write back.\n\nNutria\n\n\nthe New Sun and other works" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-01-17T01:24:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) one-two-three for me", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Jordan started it all when he wrote:\nThe story called \"1, 2, 3, etc.\" (I dont' have my copy here, and that's\nonly approximate). Anybody want to analyze this one? Is it a tossaway, or a\nmore serious story? ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My guess is that it is a \"tossaway.\" I think this story is Wolfe's idea of\na joke, more than anything else, although it is certainly a ghost story.\nSince this is a Gene Wolfe story, it may have religious significance or\nsignificance of other kinds as well, but I think the background information\npresented in \"One-Two-Three for Me\" is so sparse that very few definite\nconclusions can be drawn from it.\n\nI think the most salient feature of this story is that it is a ghost story.\nNot just that, it is a ghost story being told around a camp fire. It is\nalso a future ghost story that uses ruins from a mysterious past which\nseems a lot like our present. In these ruins a \"cursed object\" is found: a\ncell phone. This phone has to be, if not cursed, at least supernatural in\nsome way; otherwise it is hard to explain how a portable phone could still\nbe in working order after being buried in the ground for 800 years or more.\nEven its battery still has a charge!\n\nThe primary reason I think this story is one of Wolfe's jokes is that I\nthink I know where the title comes from. It is a line from a Warner Bros.\ncartoon. I have not been able to completely confirm this, but I believe it\nis _Racketeer Rabbit_ (Freleng, 1946). This cartoon has a character called\nRocky, who is a caricature of Edward G. Robinson. Rocky is a gangster\nhiding out in an abandoned house with his gang and his ill-gotten goods. In\na scene where Rocky is splitting up the loot with his men he counts out the\nstolen bills, \"One for you and one-two-three for me.\"\n\nI admit this doesn't seem to help explain this story at all, except perhaps\nas a clue that it is about greed. I will also admit that I may be wrong\nabout this as the source of the title, but this phrase does occur in the\ncartoon. Before anyone says that Wolfe is above watching cartoons, there is\nat least some evidence that he does. \"Three Fingers,\" in _The Island of Dr.\nDeath and Other Stories and Other Stories_, certainly deals with Disney\ncartoon characters. And, towards the end of _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_,\nthe corpse of a small animal is described as if it was a cartoon mouse.\n\nJonathan Laidlow seems convinced that the sounds of \"something, an animal\nor something, moving around in the dark\" that occur when Dik started\ntapping two sticks together \"trying to get the noise right\" were the sounds\nof the being that brought the powder to Jo An rising up. I am equally\nconvinced it was just an ordinary animal, or the wind, and the timing was a\ncoincidence. After all, there are no mysterious movements in the underbrush\nwhen several people are banging sticks earlier, before they all had heard\nthe story. Wolfe is just emphasizing that Dik and the others were genuinely\nscared by Jak's story. It's also slightly humorous, since Dik obviously\nscared himself.\n\nI don't find Nicholas Gevers attempts to find a link between \"One-Two-Three\nfor Me\" and \"And When They Appear\" to be convincing. If there is another\nstory that will help to explain \"One-Two-Three for Me,\" we will have to\nlook for it outside of _Strange Travelers_. Another story that came to my\nmind is \"The Most Beautiful Woman on the World\" in _Endangered Species_. I\ndon't think the stories are linked in any direct way, but they both share\nhave a story within a story and ii is very hard to be sure what is going on\nin either the inner or the outer story.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }