{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2092", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2092, "subject": "Free Live Free", "messages": 12, "voices": 4, "first": "2000-01-25T22:57:50+00:00", "last": "2000-01-28T11:59:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-01-25T22:57:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Spoilers)\n\nI just read this book again, and once again enjoyed it. I think it's one\nof Wolfe's most fun books.\n\nI was wondering if the Quadrumvirate's temptations can be mapped to the\nseven deadly sins. Candy's is obviously Gluttony and Barnes's is Lust,\nbut what about the other two? Stubb and Serpentina might both be\nPride. Or maybe Stubb is Pride and Serpentina is Covetousness, if you\nthink of her coveting power. Interesting, for a group that is\ndown-on-their-luck, none of them seems particularly slothful. Stubb is so\ndiligent and competent, I had a hard time believing he couldn't find a\ngood job, his height notwithstanding.\n\nI counted four mentions of The Wizard of Oz - Two by Candy, and two that\nactually mention the musical The Wiz.\n\nThe timeline at the end in my edition was a big help, but I'm still left\ntrying to puzzle out Whitten/Free's timeline from his own perspective. \nCan anyone fill in the stuff I haven't figured out?\n\nWhitten joins the Army\nMay 1942 Whitten briefly disappears when his future self comes back early.\nAug 1942 Whitten goes to High Country and goes to the future 1952\n (preumably the 1952 Whitten disappears when this happens? Is this\n ever mentioned?)\nWhitten returns to May 42, waits til Aug to make his report\nWhitten makes a few more trips into the future\n[is it at this point he goes back to 1803?]\n1982 Whitten buys the Magic Carpet (has he been living all that time\n or did he jump to 1982?)\n1983 Whitten disappears when Free appears, and reappears after Kip \n kills Free.\n1983 Whitten kidnaps the quadrumvirate\nWhitten briefly disappears while the quad are talking to Free\n in the cockpit of High Country\nWhitten reappears and uses Ben Free's device to \"desert\" \n (is this where he goes to 1803?)\nAn older Whitten comes back to 1983 and talks to the quad. in the \n cockpit of High Country (and then he goes where/when?)\nWhitten reappars a few days earlier as Ben Free and lives with \n the quad in his house until it is torn down.\nFree disappears (goes somewhere in the device? Where/When?)\nFree comes back a day later, and is killed by Kip.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-01-26T10:16:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 22:57 2000-01-25 -0500, Michael wrote:\n\n(Spoilers)\n\nI just read this book again, and once again enjoyed it. I think it's one\nof Wolfe's most fun books.\n\nI was wondering if the Quadrumvirate's temptations can be mapped to the\nseven deadly sins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nice idea, but there are only four of them, and most temptations\nare covered by the seven." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I counted four mentions of The Wizard of Oz - Two by Candy, and two that\nactually mention the musical The Wiz.\n\nThe timeline at the end in my edition was a big help, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not fair! Not fair! *My* copy hasn't got a timeline!\n\nbut I'm still left" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "trying to puzzle out Whitten/Free's timeline from his own perspective. \nCan anyone fill in the stuff I haven't figured out?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was going to ask the same myself. You're ahead of me, though:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whitten joins the Army\nMay 1942 Whitten briefly disappears when his future self comes back early.\nAug 1942 Whitten goes to High Country and goes to the future 1952\n(preumably the 1952 Whitten disappears when this happens? Is this\never mentioned?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, but he makes several trips into the future, so it would\nbe easy for him to be away over that period." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whitten returns to May 42, waits til Aug to make his report\nWhitten makes a few more trips into the future\n[is it at this point he goes back to 1803?]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so; see below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1982 Whitten buys the Magic Carpet (has he been living all that time\nor did he jump to 1982?)\n1983 Whitten disappears when Free appears, and reappears after Kip \nkills Free." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now this is the bit I didn't understand. How does he reappear?\nHe would have to, really, in order to do all the stuff below.\nBut I thought Wolfean time travel involved a kind of \"short\ncircuit\", a folding back, with the combined traveller being\nthe only one left. You go back in time, \"absorb\" your former\nself, and carry on from there. It never occurred to me that\nreappearing was allowed. So, do the four also reappear? The\nbig jet that they all hear during their temptations is, I always\nassumed, their ride home, though I don't see why such a big plane\nwould be needed or even sensible. They don't disappear then,\nso either this isn't them landing, or it's different because we\nare still on the \"first\" iteration round the timelines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1983 Whitten kidnaps the quadrumvirate\nWhitten briefly disappears while the quad are talking to Free\nin the cockpit of High Country\nWhitten reappears and uses Ben Free's device to \"desert\" \n(is this where he goes to 1803?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't it *after* he talks to them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "An older Whitten comes back to 1983 and talks to the quad. in the \ncockpit of High Country (and then he goes where/when?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is where he goes back to 1803, though I didn't\nnotice the date - where was that mentioned? He stays there\na long time, and grows old. Is that what he meant by it\nbeing too late to return?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whitten reappars a few days earlier as Ben Free and lives with \nthe quad in his house until it is torn down.\nFree disappears (goes somewhere in the device? Where/When?)\nFree comes back a day later, and is killed by Kip." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And another question: at the end, Ozzie and Little Ozzie arrive\nat the house (from where? did Ozzie land, go and find Little Ozzie,\nand come back? It sounded as though he had been away for longer\nwhen the witch greeted him, though I could be wrong) and go in\nthrough the back door. This is the other gizmo, of course, and\nevidently it is still working, just as it was when Free swept a\nload of rubbish into an un-wintry garden; the house is ruined\nand empty, but they go in to find everyone there and the kitchen\nusable. So, to what time do they travel, and with what effect?\n\nSBear, who has reason to believe that there is an imported copy of\n_On Blue's Waters_ wrapped in birthday paper somewhere in his house\n:-) :-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-01-26T11:09:46+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Peter Westlake wrote:\nI was wondering if the Quadrumvirate's temptations can be mapped to the\nseven deadly sins." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nice idea, but there are only four of them, and most temptations\nare covered by the seven." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I meant was, can we choose one of the seven that names each of the\nfour's \"main\" temptation? I think Stubb is pride, but you could make a\ncase for anger. I'm not sure about the witch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The timeline at the end in my edition was a big help, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not fair! Not fair! *My* copy hasn't got a timeline!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would it be \"fair use\" for me to post it to the mailing list? Did we\ndiscuss this before?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was going to ask the same myself. You're ahead of me, though:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whitten joins the Army\nMay 1942 Whitten briefly disappears when his future self comes back early.\nAug 1942 Whitten goes to High Country and goes to the future 1952\n(preumably the 1952 Whitten disappears when this happens? Is this\never mentioned?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, but he makes several trips into the future, so it would\nbe easy for him to be away over that period." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand what you mean. I'm saying that when the 1940s Whitten\ngoes to the future, 1952, then the 10-years-older 1952 Whitten ought to\ndisappear (forever? until the 1940s Whitten goes back to his own time?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1983 Whitten disappears when Free appears, and reappears after Kip \nkills Free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now this is the bit I didn't understand. How does he reappear?\nHe would have to, really, in order to do all the stuff below.\nBut I thought Wolfean time travel involved a kind of \"short\ncircuit\", a folding back, with the combined traveller being\nthe only one left. You go back in time, \"absorb\" your former\nself, and carry on from there. It never occurred to me that\nreappearing was allowed. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that this seems to be how Whitten explains it, but Kip's motive\nfor shooting Free was that \"she must have known she would never get her\nfather back as long as I--Free--refused to go back\" (from Chapter\n59). So she must have expected her father to reappear.\n\nBut this would imply that if someone goes back in time, absorbs his former\nself, then dies, then the former self would reappear. X lives? (where X\nis the number of times you've re-doubled yourself?)\n\nAlso, as I mentioned above, what happens when you go forward in time? Do\nyou \"absorb\" your future self? Maybe there's only an absorption when an\nolder self goes back to the time of a younger self." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1983 Whitten kidnaps the quadrumvirate\nWhitten briefly disappears while the quad are talking to Free\nin the cockpit of High Country\nWhitten reappears and uses Ben Free's device to \"desert\" \n(is this where he goes to 1803?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Isn't it *after* he talks to them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I messed that part up (but not the way you think) here's excerpts from the\ntimeline:\n\nFriday, Jan 14, 1983 - Free comes back to his house, Whitten disappears.\nThu, Jan 20, 1983 - Kip kidnaps Free (he didn't escape the demolition via \nthe time machine, Kip nabbed him)\nFri, Jan 21, 1983 - Kip and Free search the basement, Kip kills Free, \nWhitten reappears in his office\nSat, Jan 22, 1983 - The man in the duffle coat (Whitten as Kip knows\nhim) vanishes and the quad talk to Whitten (\"Free\") in High Country.\nMon, Jan 24, 1983 - the man in the duffle coat deserts, using Free's\nhidden device \n\nSo the younger Whitten, Kip's dad \"deserts\", not the older version we meet\nin High Country. But does Kip's dad go to 1803? The older version in\nHigh Country says of his still older, future self, \"I think he must have\ngone to some other time, although I have no idea what that time might\nbe. To the Lewis and Clark expedition, I hope.\" (end of ch. 59). So\nwhere/when does Kip's dad go?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And another question: at the end, Ozzie and Little Ozzie arrive\nat the house (from where? did Ozzie land, go and find Little Ozzie,\nand come back? It sounded as though he had been away for longer\nwhen the witch greeted him, though I could be wrong) and go in\nthrough the back door. This is the other gizmo, of course, and\nevidently it is still working, just as it was when Free swept a\nload of rubbish into an un-wintry garden; the house is ruined\nand empty, but they go in to find everyone there and the kitchen\nusable. So, to what time do they travel, and with what effect?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My take on this scene is that, after they talk to Free in the cockpit,\nStubb, Candy, and Serpentina immediately go back in time via the High\nCountry's device. Stubb decides to go back down in the shuttle airplane,\ngets his son, then takes him to Free's house to use that device to go back\nin time to whatever point the other three have gone back to. Evidence:\nthe other three all immediately say yes to Free's offer, but Stubb says\n\"Swee'pea--\" (Popeye's little kid).\n\nSo presumably, they go back and fold in to their earlier selves, and the\noriginal lives they lived (everything we read) are gone except in their\nown memories.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-26T10:54:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:57 PM 1/25/00 -0500, you wrote:\n\n(Spoilers)\n\nI just read this book again, and once again enjoyed it. I think it's one\nof Wolfe's most fun books.\n\nI was wondering if the Quadrumvirate's temptations can be mapped to the\nseven deadly sins. Candy's is obviously Gluttony and Barnes's is Lust,\nbut what about the other two? Stubb and Serpentina might both be\nPride. Or maybe Stubb is Pride and Serpentina is Covetousness, if you\nthink of her coveting power. Interesting, for a group that is\ndown-on-their-luck, none of them seems particularly slothful. Stubb is so\ndiligent and competent, I had a hard time believing he couldn't find a\ngood job, his height notwithstanding.\n\nI counted four mentions of The Wizard of Oz - Two by Candy, and two that\nactually mention the musical The Wiz." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThe four main characters are from the Wizard. Ben Free is the Wizard.\nGlinda (note spelling) is also the name of one of the good witches. It's\nbeen years since I read it, but I do recall that the father and son (Barnes\nand Kip?) are Dorothy and Toto. The others can be seen as needing courage,\nbrains, and heart. Of course, it's all transposed, as in Niven's Ringworld,\nbut it's definitely there. Also, I suspect that the narrative follows\nWizard of Oz to a degree, with the madhouse scene equivalent to the visit\nto the Wizard, the journey to High Frontier as the visit to the west (?),\netc. \n\tSince I've not read this in years, someone else will have to correct the\nerrors in the above paragraph; but I've given enough to go on.\n\tAs for the Deadly Sins: this looks very much right-on to me, even though\nputting seven together with four will complicate matters a bit. It's very\nWolfean in concept, and prima facie looks right.\n\tOf course, this is one of Wolfe's \"American\" stories, with Been Free as\nthe old America before socialism (like it or not, Wolfe is pretty\nlibertarian). Thus, to use the Wizard of Oz as a scaffold is entirely\nappropriate. The characters are living in \"fallen America\" and search for\n\"true America,\" and the story goes from there. I need to re-read this, of\ncourse, because since they only find an empty airplane (old America), the\nquestion is: What is the REAL thing they are looking for? Well, we know\nWolfe will answer: Christianity. But how is that presented? I don't recall.\n\tOh, the original English publication does not have the timeline, but the\nAmerican edition(s) do. I don't have every single printing, so I cannot be\nmore specific. As I dimly recall, Wolfe was persuaded to include the\ntimeline by the publishers, who thought it was needed. I'd say: Take it cum\ngrano salis (with a grain of salt). Since Wolfe originally intended the\ntimeline as a puzzle for the reader, I doubt if he completely solved it in\nhis appendix -- that would be very UN-Wolfean!!\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-26T10:58:44+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dadgummit. I always forget something.\n\tThe Quadrumvirate alludes to the Triumvirate that took over in Rome after\nthe collapse of the decadent Old Roman Republic. That's also part of\nWolfe's \"American\" story. The collapse of America into licentiousness and\ntyranny will eventuate in some new order. Ben Free \"prepares\" his new\n\"triumvirate\" for this purpose.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-01-26T12:13:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Jim Jordan wrote:\n\tThe four main characters are from the Wizard. Ben Free is the Wizard.\nGlinda (note spelling) is also the name of one of the good witches. It's\nbeen years since I read it, but I do recall that the father and son (Barnes\nand Kip?) are Dorothy and Toto. The others can be seen as needing courage,\nbrains, and heart. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From all the mentions of the movie, Wolfe obviously had it in mind. I can\nsee Free as the wizard, but I can't make the other characters fit. None\nof the charcters seem particularly lacking in courage, brains, or heart. \nTheir faults seem more moral: Stubb is vain, worried about his height,\nproud, always trying to prove himself. Candy lacks self-control regarding\nfood (she acts bravely, cleverly, and has a heart (of gold?)). You might\nsay the witch needs more heart, but it seems her real turning point is\nwhere she realizes that her pursuit of power has been misguided:\n\n \"Wealth and power we have already too much of--we suffocate. Longer\nlife? We outstay the lion and elephant. Hardly a day passes that we do\nnot meet some man or woman who should be dead, who has outlasted his own\ntime by decades...As for healing, it is not we who require it but the\nworld, which requires to be cured of us. Serenity would indeed be a\nbenefit, but we do not seek it; if we did we might find it required us to\nabandon wealth and power, and we love them too much. No, what we require\nfrom whatever Powers may be entitled to give it is some indication of how\nfar we may go...we do not know what is permitted to us, and that ignorance\nparalyzes thos3 who might otherwise refrain, while the worst of us kill\nevery living thing and ruin all they reach.\" (from Chapter 47).\n\nMaybe it's just a general four-on-a-quest allusion to Oz.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-01-26T17:31:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:09 2000-01-26 -0500, Michael wrote:\nOn Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Peter Westlake wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I was wondering if the Quadrumvirate's temptations can be mapped to the\nseven deadly sins." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nice idea, but there are only four of them, and most temptations\nare covered by the seven." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I meant was, can we choose one of the seven that names each of the\nfour's \"main\" temptation? I think Stubb is pride, but you could make a\ncase for anger. I'm not sure about the witch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me either, and because of that and Stubb I don't think there's\nmuch in this, despite Candy and Ozzie being so clear-cut." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The timeline at the end in my edition was a big help, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would it be \"fair use\" for me to post it to the mailing list? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope so :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Aug 1942 Whitten goes to High Country and goes to the future 1952\n(preumably the 1952 Whitten disappears when this happens? Is this\never mentioned?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, but he makes several trips into the future, so it would\nbe easy for him to be away over that period." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand what you mean. I'm saying that when the 1940s Whitten\ngoes to the future, 1952, then the 10-years-older 1952 Whitten ought to\ndisappear (forever? until the 1940s Whitten goes back to his own time?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In your list you have:\n\n Whitten returns to May 42, waits til Aug to make his report\n==> Whitten makes a few more trips into the future\n [is it at this point he goes back to 1803?]\n 1982 Whitten buys the Magic Carpet\n\nI'm suggesting that in 1952, Whitten makes one of those trips\ninto the future, leaving before the arrival of his younger\nself and returning after his younger self has gone back to\nthe 1940s. His younger self is the only one present in those\nparticular days of 1952." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1983 Whitten disappears when Free appears, and reappears after Kip \nkills Free." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Now this is the bit I didn't understand. How does he reappear?\nHe would have to, really, in order to do all the stuff below.\nBut I thought Wolfean time travel involved a kind of \"short\ncircuit\", a folding back, with the combined traveller being\nthe only one left. You go back in time, \"absorb\" your former\nself, and carry on from there. It never occurred to me that\nreappearing was allowed. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree that this seems to be how Whitten explains it, but Kip's motive\nfor shooting Free was that \"she must have known she would never get her\nfather back as long as I--Free--refused to go back\" (from Chapter\n59). So she must have expected her father to reappear.\n\nBut this would imply that if someone goes back in time, absorbs his former\nself, then dies, then the former self would reappear. X lives? (where X\nis the number of times you've re-doubled yourself?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(!) The whole theory is rather unsatisfactory, I've always thought.\nYou only need this kind of time travel, where you can only be in\none place at a time, if you believe in the soul. Duplication of\nsouls is a theologically tricky area. Is it Malrubius who explains\nto Severian near the end of BotNS, about aquastors and writing?\nThe bit where Severian comes to understand why the witches ran\naway and Hildegrin got caught in the metaphysical blast, or whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, as I mentioned above, what happens when you go forward in time? Do\nyou \"absorb\" your future self? Maybe there's only an absorption when an\nolder self goes back to the time of a younger self." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We never actually see this, do we? And it's easily avoidable.\nGood question, though. Why does the composite appear in the\nlocation of the time traveller? Has to appear somewhere, I suppose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1983 Whitten kidnaps the quadrumvirate\nWhitten briefly disappears while the quad are talking to Free\nin the cockpit of High Country\nWhitten reappears and uses Ben Free's device to \"desert\" \n(is this where he goes to 1803?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't it *after* he talks to them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I messed that part up (but not the way you think) here's excerpts from the\ntimeline:\n\nFriday, Jan 14, 1983 - Free comes back to his house, Whitten disappears.\nThu, Jan 20, 1983 - Kip kidnaps Free (he didn't escape the demolition via \nthe time machine, Kip nabbed him)\nFri, Jan 21, 1983 - Kip and Free search the basement, Kip kills Free, \nWhitten reappears in his office\nSat, Jan 22, 1983 - The man in the duffle coat (Whitten as Kip knows\nhim) vanishes and the quad talk to Whitten (\"Free\") in High Country.\nMon, Jan 24, 1983 - the man in the duffle coat deserts, using Free's\nhidden device \n\nSo the younger Whitten, Kip's dad \"deserts\", not the older version we meet\nin High Country. But does Kip's dad go to 1803? The older version in\nHigh Country says of his still older, future self, \"I think he must have\ngone to some other time, although I have no idea what that time might\nbe. To the Lewis and Clark expedition, I hope.\" (end of ch. 59). So\nwhere/when does Kip's dad go?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see what you mean. And I see why I didn't remember 1803, which\npresumably is the date of Lewis and Clark." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And another question: at the end, Ozzie and Little Ozzie arrive\nat the house (from where? did Ozzie land, go and find Little Ozzie,\nand come back? It sounded as though he had been away for longer\nwhen the witch greeted him, though I could be wrong) and go in\nthrough the back door. This is the other gizmo, of course, and\nevidently it is still working, just as it was when Free swept a\nload of rubbish into an un-wintry garden; the house is ruined\nand empty, but they go in to find everyone there and the kitchen\nusable. So, to what time do they travel, and with what effect?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[s/Stubb/Barnes to avoid confusion]\nMy take on this scene is that, after they talk to Free in the cockpit,\nStubb, Candy, and Serpentina immediately go back in time via the High\nCountry's device. [Barnes] decides to go back down in the shuttle airplane,\ngets his son, then takes him to Free's house to use that device to go back\nin time to whatever point the other three have gone back to. Evidence:\nthe other three all immediately say yes to Free's offer, but [Barnes] says\n\"Swee'pea--\" (Popeye's little kid)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting idea. So Barnes goes back in the present to find Little Ozzie,\nwho was last seen in the care of Sandy Duck. Why are they \"ragged\" when\nthey get back to the house? I've been assuming that the jet they all see\nwas another shuttle, marking the point to which they travel back. Then\nthe raggedness is accounted for, because both Ozzies are in something\nof a mess at that stage. Hmm... thinking about it, if he really was on\nthat jet, Barnes would have to get to the club from the airport. He would\narrive too late.\n\nSo I'm still confused. Why is the big jet in the story at all?\nIt serves to synchronize the separate story threads, but that\nhardly seems necessary. This is Wolfe, so there *must* be a\nreason for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So presumably, they go back and fold in to their earlier selves, and the\noriginal lives they lived (everything we read) are gone except in their\nown memories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what I always assumed. The reappearing business doesn't really\naffect this, since their original lives only run up to late Jan 1983.\nIf the older and improved versions live through that date, the originals\nnever get a chance to pop up again.\n\nHow far back do you think they do go, anyway? Is the absorption process\nsufficiently magical to take two fat adult Candys and combine them into\na slim one, and likewise to make two short Stubbs into a tall one? Or\nwould they have to go back far enough to grow up slimmer (Candy) or grow\ntaller (Stubb)? I think that would be too literal (Stubb's height in\nparticular; he would have to have a different genetic makeup!), so they\ndon't necessarily have to go far. As I say, I always assumed the folding\nback point was when the jet appears in the sky, but you've cast that into\ndoubt and me into confusion!\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-26T12:28:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:13 PM 1/26/00 -0500, you wrote:\nOn Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Jim Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\tThe four main characters are from the Wizard. Ben Free is the Wizard.\nGlinda (note spelling) is also the name of one of the good witches. It's\nbeen years since I read it, but I do recall that the father and son (Barnes\nand Kip?) are Dorothy and Toto. The others can be seen as needing courage,\nbrains, and heart. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From all the mentions of the movie, Wolfe obviously had it in mind. I can\nsee Free as the wizard, but I can't make the other characters fit. None\nof the charcters seem particularly lacking in courage, brains, or heart. \nTheir faults seem more moral: Stubb is vain, worried about his height,\nproud, always trying to prove himself. Candy lacks self-control regarding\nfood (she acts bravely, cleverly, and has a heart (of gold?)). You might\nsay the witch needs more heart, but it seems her real turning point is\nwhere she realizes that her pursuit of power has been misguided." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI recall being struck by and convinced of this paradigm when I read the\nbook, but I just can't recall enough at the moment to argue the point. If\nmy aging longterm memory is serving me, I think I was thinking that each\ncharacter has a kind of perverted form of the virtue that is \"lacking.\"\nI.e., that Stubbs (maybe) has a courage of the wrong sort; Candy has a\nheart of the wrong sort; the witch has a mind of the wrong sort. They are\neach out of balance in a certain direction. (Recall how Wolfe uses the\nmind, emotion, will paradigm in \"The God and His Man.\") They don't\nperceive that they lack the better form of these virtues -- that's for the\nreader to perceive -- thus providing a more sophisticated variant on the Oz\nscenario. That's off the top of my head and based on memories that have\nmostly flown away. Maybe it'll be of help to those currently reading the book.\n\t(There are just too many Wolfe books to re-read!!!)\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-01-26T23:32:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jim Jordan wrote:\nMichael Straight wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Jim Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\tThe four main characters are from the Wizard. Ben Free is the Wizard.\nGlinda (note spelling) is also the name of one of the good witches. It's\nbeen years since I read it, but I do recall that the father and son (Barnes\nand Kip?) are Dorothy and Toto. The others can be seen as needing courage,\nbrains, and heart." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From all the mentions of the movie, Wolfe obviously had it in mind. I can\nsee Free as the wizard, but I can't make the other characters fit. None\nof the charcters seem particularly lacking in courage, brains, or heart.\nTheir faults seem more moral: Stubb is vain, worried about his height,\nproud, always trying to prove himself. Candy lacks self-control regarding\nfood (she acts bravely, cleverly, and has a heart (of gold?)). You might\nsay the witch needs more heart, but it seems her real turning point is\nwhere she realizes that her pursuit of power has been misguided." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I recall being struck by and convinced of this paradigm when I read the\nbook, but I just can't recall enough at the moment to argue the point. If\nmy aging longterm memory is serving me, I think I was thinking that each\ncharacter has a kind of perverted form of the virtue that is \"lacking.\"\nI.e., that Stubbs (maybe) has a courage of the wrong sort; Candy has a\nheart of the wrong sort; the witch has a mind of the wrong sort. They are\neach out of balance in a certain direction. (Recall how Wolfe uses the\nmind, emotion, will paradigm in \"The God and His Man.\") They don't\nperceive that they lack the better form of these virtues -- that's for the\nreader to perceive -- thus providing a more sophisticated variant on the Oz\nscenario. That's off the top of my head and based on memories that have\nmostly flown away. Maybe it'll be of help to those currently reading the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have fairly recently (re)read the first 14 Oz books (as all regular\nlong-term readers of this list know only too well) and I have read FLF at\nleast three times although not very recently (partly because I just plain\nenjoy it and partly to try to pin down the time travel stuff). I have read\nseveral times in this list and elsewhere that FLF is a \"retelling\" of the\nstory of the Wizard of Oz but I have always felt that this was wrong\n(unless you are going to define retelling in such a vague way as to allow\nFLF to be a retelling of virtually every other book you care to name as\nwell -- Free is Captain Ahab, Free is the Mad Hatter, etc.).\n\nI am still far from convinced that there is much merit to this theory, but\nJim Jordan's explanation of the version of the FLF=WOZ theory that he is\nfamiliar with (I don't know if this is THE theory or if there are different\nversions) is the first time I don't feel I can dismiss it out of hand.\nSince I am the self-proclaimed Oz expert on this list (although there are\nothers on this list at least as knowledgeable as I--you know who you are,\nalga), I'll have to try to re-read FLF with this in mind.\n\nYou know, if Jim Jordan is right, then Ozzie Barnes somehow embodies both\nDorothy Gale and Popeye the Sailor simultaneously. It does seem like\nsomething Wolfe might do, doesn't it?\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-01-27T10:23:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, William H. Ansley wrote:\nYou know, if Jim Jordan is right, then Ozzie Barnes somehow embodies both\nDorothy Gale and Popeye the Sailor simultaneously. It does seem like\nsomething Wolfe might do, doesn't it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except they're operating on different levels. Ozzie calls himself Popeye\n(because he has an eye that pops), humming the \"strong to the finish\"\nsong, calling his son \"Swee' pea\". There's no sign that he thinks of\nhimself as Dorothy, though.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-27T12:59:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:32 PM 1/26/00 -0500, you wrote:\n\nI have fairly recently (re)read the first 14 Oz books (as all regular\nlong-term readers of this list know only too well) and I have read FLF at\nleast three times although not very recently (partly because I just plain\nenjoy it and partly to try to pin down the time travel stuff). I have read\nseveral times in this list and elsewhere that FLF is a \"retelling\" of the\nstory of the Wizard of Oz but I have always felt that this was wrong\n(unless you are going to define retelling in such a vague way as to allow\nFLF to be a retelling of virtually every other book you care to name as\nwell -- Free is Captain Ahab, Free is the Mad Hatter, etc.).\n\nI am still far from convinced that there is much merit to this theory, but\nJim Jordan's explanation of the version of the FLF=WOZ theory that he is\nfamiliar with (I don't know if this is THE theory or if there are different\nversions) is the first time I don't feel I can dismiss it out of hand.\nSince I am the self-proclaimed Oz expert on this list (although there are\nothers on this list at least as knowledgeable as I--you know who you are,\nalga), I'll have to try to re-read FLF with this in mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWhat set me to thinking was the name Glinda with an eye, as well as the\nother allusions. When I cast my mind back over the book, the Oz connection\nseemed right. I'd already seen that Ringworld was an Oz rework, so I was\nopen to the thought. Also Oz figures in other Wolfe stories. It would only\nbe the first book, and probably with the film's changes also in the\nbackground. Of course, with Wolfe you also have political and religious\nthemes interacting as well, and other allusions. But it sure looked like\nthe Wizard of Oz was providing a big input, and to a considerable degree, a\nstructural one as well. Consider that the arrival at the four at the house\nat the beginning is a journey to Oz, for instance. \n\tAs for whose theory this is, it's mine. Others may have caught the same\nthing, but I don't recall any discussion of this here, so I can speak only\nfor myself. (Though there is a year's worth of posts I haven't read yet.\nI've been out of pocket.)\n\tWell, I'll be interested in your thinking after you re-read FLF (if you\ncan find the time). I'm sure we all will. You're the expert!\n\tAnd since you're the expert, what do you think of the economic\ninterpretation of the first book, that the road is the \"cross of gold,\" the\nfake-emerald city (seen through green eyeglasses) is greenbacks, etc.\nSounds quite plausible to me. (I didn't see anything in FLF that indicates\nWolfe is familiar with, or accepts, this reading, though.)\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-01-28T11:59:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Free Live Free", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 26 Jan 2000, Peter Westlake wrote:\n(!) The whole theory is rather unsatisfactory, I've always thought.\nYou only need this kind of time travel, where you can only be in\none place at a time, if you believe in the soul. Duplication of\nsouls is a theologically tricky area. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I can understand thinking of it this way, it doesn't seem to be\nnecessarily the only solution. If you can have the same soul at this\nplace at 4:00 and at this place at 5:00 without worriying about it having\nsplit into two different souls, why can't you have the same soul at this\nplace at 4:00 and at that place at 4:00?\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }