{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2100", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2100, "subject": "the Ziggurat", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-01-28T16:33:04+00:00", "last": "2000-01-31T12:30:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at coredcs.com" }, "date": "2000-01-28T16:33:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: the Ziggurat", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My two centavos worth on \"The Ziggurat\" controversy, most of which plays\noff of Nutria's rather interesting interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tamar is not her name, but the name Emory gives her, and he\nexplicitly calls the name that of Solomon's sister. Now, Wolfe-like, that\ncan also allude to Tamar's rape by her brother, and also to the earlier\nTamar, but first we have to deal with what is explicit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that for all intents and purposes that Tamar _is_ her name--at\nleast it's the only one Wolfe provides via Emery, his viewpoint character.\nTo therefore ignore the connotations of both incest and sexual assault\nassociated with that name may be shortsighted. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When she sees the\nlion on Emory's pen, she hums \"God Save the Queen.\" The lion is the Lion\nof\nJudah, symbol of the tribe of Judah and of the Davidic royal house. In an\nall-woman society, the king is a queen of course, but the allusion is to\nSolomon. (Also to Jesus.) With this in mind, I want to see any hint of\nevidence that Amnon's rape of sister Tamar is in view, or the earlier\nTamar's seduction of her father-in-law Judah. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two alternate points here. The lion emblem identifies where Emery picked up\nthe pen he's using--the Red Lion Inn--and in alchemy, the red lion refers\nto the philosopher's stone--the technical version of which Emery brings\nback from the ziggurat. At least Emery hopes the magic dish will help him\nwrest gold from his tragedy. \n\nAs for \"God save the Queen,\" I thought this was possibly meant to function\nas a nod to the most famous vanished historical community of North\nAmerica--the colony at Roanoke Island, and whose first firstborn child,\nVirginia Dare (named after Elizabeth Regina), disappeared along with\neverybody else, just like the frontier settlement Brook mentions on p. 309.\n(See the movie: \"Croatoan: the Brownie's Revenge.\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As to who killed the coyote: Emory says that he was responsible for the\nbeast's death ONLY in the sense that he had tamed it, and thus it was not\nprepared when it came against a human interested in killing it. I see no\nhint that Emory himself killed it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I believe you're being too literal here. No, indeed, Emery does not\nliterally kill the coyote, but he sure does so figuratively, by\nencouraging/bribing it to disregard its natural fear of man. Wolfe uses\nthis idea of \"safe distance\" a number of times in the story. \"Come here,\"\nEmery shouts, when he first sees one of the alien women. Later, when she\nand her partner breach that distance, it leads to their demise. Also note\nhow Emery repeats several times, \"Boys here, girls over there.\" Given the\ncharges of incest leveled against him, this seems the safest and most\npractical thing to observe, yet look at how in the very last sentence,\n\"Very gently, [Tamar's] fingers closed over his.\" Once again, distance has\nbeen closed and it will lead to dire consequences." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tAs for the women on the timeship being clones of Emory's women: Where is\nthere any hint of this? It involves a LOT of reading \"behind the lines\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "come to this conclusion; to wit, that eggs were taken from the girl and\nused to make clones that have come back in time. But in fact, the story\ncontinually says that these Brownies are OFTEN coming back in time and\nmessing with people. Stealing eggs? Maybe. Stealing children? Well, that\nis\nindeed mentioned. So perhaps the hypothesis is not completely amiss. But\nwhere is the evidence that Tamar is herself a clone of the girl? (I\ncannot\nremember which girl it is, so I cannot give the name here; my book is at\nhome.)\n\tMoreover, the intermediate color of the skin of the three future women\nleads me against this hypothesis. They look like what you think of when\nyou\nthink of a future wherein all the various races of earth have melded into\none. The daughters are American white girls. A clone of one of them\nshould\nlook like that, not be brownish. Yet all the future women are brownish;\nhence \"brownies.\" How can they be clones of various white, black, and\nyellow women of the past?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The women and the twins appear very similar physically. To wit: \"What had\nthey thought of Jan, a woman almost a foot taller than they? Jan with her\ncreamy complexion and yellow hair? Of Aileen and Alayna, _girls of their\nown size, nearly as dark as they_, and like as two peas?\" (p. 318) Also, in\ntalking about the chimney descent, Emery comments: \"He could not have done\nit, and neither could Brook, if Brook were still alive, but the twins could\nhave done it, and these women were scarcely larger.\" (339) The twins, being\neleven, could well be near their full height. And why, if not to match up\nskin colors of twins and aliens, would Wolfe have their father be\ndark-complected, when, any other color if he were not attempting a\nparallel, would be perfectly fine, if not expected? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tI'm happy to be set straight on this, but for now I don't see it. The\nend\ndoes not \"feel like incest\" to me. I don't know how you get that from the\ntext. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One last note in this respect: Alayna is the twin who tells Emery she has\nrefused to lie about his having molested her. But we never hear what Aileen\nhas to say in this regard; and it's Aileen that both has the doctor's\nappointment Jan mentions (shrink? gynecologist?) and who winds up kidnapped\nby the aliens. 'Aileen,' however, and 'alien' are formed from the exact\nsame letters. Surely, this is not a coincidence, but Wolfe tipping his hat\nas to the origin of Tamar, the once and future daughter of pedophile Emery\nBainbridge.\n\nRobert Borski " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-28T21:03:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: the Ziggurat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One other thing:\n\tThere are a number of Wolfe stories wherein the last paragraph or line\nstuns the reader into realizing he's misunderstood what has been going on,\nand forces a re-read. But that does not happen here. If the last lines\nread, \"She looked so much like one of the twins. Emory could not wait to\nhave his way with her!\" Then we'd be entitled to think, \"Hey! Whoa! What's\ngoing on here?\" But nothing like that happens. The ending is gentle and\nkind on the face of it, and I don't see any indication there, or elsewhere,\nthat \"nothing is what it seems.\"\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-28T20:52:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: the Ziggurat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wow, Borski. You make an interesting case. I guess it just does not make\nsense to me, without something a lot more explicit. From what I can tell,\nyour interpretation assumes the \"maximum delusion\" view that Mantis set out\nfor me/us. Maybe not, but if not, I see even more problems. I'll try to\nexplain:\n\tFirst a bit of response to Mantis. I do think Emory is partially modeled\non Wolfe. That does not mean he is a \"good Wolfe.\" The family of clones in\n*Fifth Head* aren't \"good Wolfes\" either. So, even on the \"max del\"\nreading, Emory would still be a Wolfe, just a bad one. On a conventional SF\nreading, which I still think is right, he's just a flawed Wolfe, like Wolfe\nhimself. \n\t\n\tNow, to interact with interaction:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:33 PM 1/28/00 -0600, RB wrote:\nMy two centavos worth on \"The Ziggurat\" controversy, most of which plays\noff of Nutria's rather interesting interpretation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tamar is not her name, but the name Emory gives her, and he\nexplicitly calls the name that of Solomon's sister. Now, Wolfe-like, that\ncan also allude to Tamar's rape by her brother, and also to the earlier\nTamar, but first we have to deal with what is explicit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that for all intents and purposes that Tamar _is_ her name--at\nleast it's the only one Wolfe provides via Emery, his viewpoint character.\nTo therefore ignore the connotations of both incest and sexual assault\nassociated with that name may be shortsighted. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tMaybe, and that's a point possibly in your favor. I still can't buy it,\nbut more on that below. I guess on your take \"Solomon\" is Emory, so that\nthe relationship is hinted at as incestuous. But that's really a stretch,\nwithout better indications of the overall presuppositions of your reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When she sees the\nlion on Emory's pen, she hums \"God Save the Queen.\" The lion is the Lion\nof\nJudah, symbol of the tribe of Judah and of the Davidic royal house. In an\nall-woman society, the king is a queen of course, but the allusion is to\nSolomon. (Also to Jesus.) With this in mind, I want to see any hint of\nevidence that Amnon's rape of sister Tamar is in view, or the earlier\nTamar's seduction of her father-in-law Judah. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Two alternate points here. The lion emblem identifies where Emery picked up\nthe pen he's using--the Red Lion Inn--and in alchemy, the red lion refers\nto the philosopher's stone--the technical version of which Emery brings\nback from the ziggurat. At least Emery hopes the magic dish will help him\nwrest gold from his tragedy. \n\nAs for \"God save the Queen,\" I thought this was possibly meant to function\nas a nod to the most famous vanished historical community of North\nAmerica--the colony at Roanoke Island, and whose first firstborn child,\nVirginia Dare (named after Elizabeth Regina), disappeared along with\neverybody else, just like the frontier settlement Brook mentions on p. 309.\n(See the movie: \"Croatoan: the Brownie's Revenge.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, I'm happy to grant this, and you may be right that these two are all\nthere is. It is surely Wolfean to have multiple allusions, so I'll keep my\nsuggestion in the mix for the nonce." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As to who killed the coyote: Emory says that he was responsible for the\nbeast's death ONLY in the sense that he had tamed it, and thus it was not\nprepared when it came against a human interested in killing it. I see no\nhint that Emory himself killed it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, I believe you're being too literal here. No, indeed, Emery does not\nliterally kill the coyote, but he sure does so figuratively, by\nencouraging/bribing it to disregard its natural fear of man. Wolfe uses\nthis idea of \"safe distance\" a number of times in the story. \"Come here,\"\nEmery shouts, when he first sees one of the alien women. Later, when she\nand her partner breach that distance, it leads to their demise. Also note\nhow Emery repeats several times, \"Boys here, girls over there.\" Given the\ncharges of incest leveled against him, this seems the safest and most\npractical thing to observe, yet look at how in the very last sentence,\n\"Very gently, [Tamar's] fingers closed over his.\" Once again, distance has\nbeen closed and it will lead to dire consequences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tMy reading also takes the distances into account, but as being closed\nthrough healing, not in horror.\n\tNow, I'm assuming that your reading (or the Max Del reading) goes like\nthis: When Jan threatens to take Emory to court, he (subconsciously?)\ndecides to kill her and the twin who does not ask forgiveness. \n\tBut what does this entail? Well, if the future women are really just the\nthree women in his family, I can see that the shouting woman on the\nvideoscreen (?) would be Jan, and then he kills one of them in a fight. But\nthen, what is the stuff about driving them to town? On the max delusion\nreading, how do we sort out what happens, even maniacally, and what does not? \n\tAt this point, it makes more sense to me that the three future women are\nreal brownies, and that their threeness is a literary link to the three\nwomen already in Emory's life. One is larger. They threaten him. One shouts\nat him. Etc. But for me this does not indicate that they are the same\nidentical persons, one set in real life and one set in a maniacal delusion.\nThey are just parallel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\tAs for the women on the timeship being clones of Emory's women: Where is\nthere any hint of this? It involves a LOT of reading \"behind the lines\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to\ncome to this conclusion; to wit, that eggs were taken from the girl and\nused to make clones that have come back in time. But in fact, the story\ncontinually says that these Brownies are OFTEN coming back in time and\nmessing with people. Stealing eggs? Maybe. Stealing children? Well, that\nis\nindeed mentioned. So perhaps the hypothesis is not completely amiss. But\nwhere is the evidence that Tamar is herself a clone of the girl? (I\ncannot\nremember which girl it is, so I cannot give the name here; my book is at\nhome.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\tMoreover, the intermediate color of the skin of the three future women\nleads me against this hypothesis. They look like what you think of when\nyou\nthink of a future wherein all the various races of earth have melded into\none. The daughters are American white girls. A clone of one of them\nshould\nlook like that, not be brownish. Yet all the future women are brownish;\nhence \"brownies.\" How can they be clones of various white, black, and\nyellow women of the past?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The women and the twins appear very similar physically. To wit: \"What had\nthey thought of Jan, a woman almost a foot taller than they? Jan with her\ncreamy complexion and yellow hair? Of Aileen and Alayna, _girls of their\nown size, nearly as dark as they_, and like as two peas?\" (p. 318) Also, in\ntalking about the chimney descent, Emery comments: \"He could not have done\nit, and neither could Brook, if Brook were still alive, but the twins could\nhave done it, and these women were scarcely larger.\" (339) The twins, being\neleven, could well be near their full height. And why, if not to match up\nskin colors of twins and aliens, would Wolfe have their father be\ndark-complected, when, any other color if he were not attempting a\nparallel, would be perfectly fine, if not expected? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tBut the third alien is also brown, right? And Jan is not. This seems to me\nto establish only a parallel, not an identity. (And I have found that their\nfather had \"swarthy good looks,\" so that is indeed established for me now.)\nSure, the twins are \"matched up\" with the future women, but why does that\nindicate that they are the same, or clones? It is just another parallel, I\nsubmit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\tI'm happy to be set straight on this, but for now I don't see it. The\nend\ndoes not \"feel like incest\" to me. I don't know how you get that from the\ntext. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One last note in this respect: Alayna is the twin who tells Emery she has\nrefused to lie about his having molested her. But we never hear what Aileen\nhas to say in this regard; and it's Aileen that both has the doctor's\nappointment Jan mentions (shrink? gynecologist?) and who winds up kidnapped\nby the aliens. 'Aileen,' however, and 'alien' are formed from the exact\nsame letters. Surely, this is not a coincidence, but Wolfe tipping his hat\nas to the origin of Tamar, the once and future daughter of pedophile Emery\nBainbridge." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tOn my reading, Emory is guilty only of \"rocking and kissing\" them. That\nmight be a double-entendre, but is not evidence of anything other than\naffection. Now, Jan may herself believe, or have convinced herself, that\nEmory molested them. But why agree with her? She may be a somewhat decent\nwoman, and there is indication of this. But she appears to be making a\nstereotyped charge (as Alga noted), which she may or may not have convinced\nherself of. \n\tAs for the Aileen/Alien parallel: well, I can see it, but what does it\nmean? It seems to me no more than another allusion to the distance that has\ncome between Emory and women in general. Women are alien.\n\tI'm trying to get into the Max Del reading. Okay, why does Emory kill\nBrook? Because he thinks his son might have a TV in the car, and he hates TV? \n\tWhat is the visit to the Ziggurat? A visit to the hotel to murder Jan and\nthe girls? Pure imagination? Can a visit to a hotel/motel be \"seen\" by a\nmaniac in the way Emory perceives his visit to the Ziggurat? I cannot see\nhow. \n\tI have to say that as I reskim parts of the novella, I can see why one\nmight read it this way, but only if one comes to the narrative with a lot\nof suspicion. I still see lots of problems. The future women appear before\nJan and the kids arrive, and a burn appears on the back of a chair on the\nporch. Is this also imagination on Emory's part? How do we account for\nthat? And, to repeat Alga's question, who stole the axe and rifle, or was\nthis only a maniacal delusion also? \n\tEmory thinks one of the differences between men and women is that woman\nhave a fairy-tale view of love. So on the Max Del reading, it is actually\nEmory who has moved into a fairy (brownie) tale. Would that be the view? My\ntake is that men and women are not so different as Emory supposes, and that\nthis is actually part of Wolfe's point.\n\tNow, maybe you're not taking the Max Del view, but then what? We've got\nreal future women. So who murders Brook? What evidence is there that Emory\nkilled him? His mooted lack of emotion could be because he's stunned. He\nactually prays to God that it not be so. He does not look all that\nunemotional to me; just stunned. That part of the story seems quite right\nand realistic to me. It could be Maximum Delusion, I guess, but it seems\nfar better to read it as real. If the future women killed Brook, then they,\nnot Emory, are the authors of the violence in the story.\n\tAnd on a \"real SF\" reading, then we're back to Emory's driving Jan and the\ngirls to safety. Not an indication of a bad person. And EVEN IF Tamar is\nsomehow supposed to be a clone, she is only the clone of a stepdaughter,\nand so marrying her is not incest. \n\tI remain very unconvinced of this reading. I think it's too clever by\nhalf. But with Wolfe, you never know (unless he tells you), so write back\nand take me to pieces if you can!\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2000-01-30T21:39:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ziggurat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Entering the very intriguing debate on \"The Ziggurat\":\nafter having read the novella inconclusively back in\n1996, I reread it in the context of STRANGE TRAVELERS,\npartly because I was preparing to review the\ncollection and was interested in seeing it as an\nanthology unified by theme. The conclusion I came to\nwas similar to the one I reached some time ago about\nLONG SUN (see my article \"Five Steps Towards Briah\" in\nNOVA EXPRESS): that is, that ST as a whole is about\nthe horrors of the present world and about generally\nvain attempts to escape or palliate them. The stories\nin ST were written in a defined period; they have a\ncommon tone; in this context, then, \"The Ziggurat\" is\none experiment of several in delineating how a\ncharacter can be led astray by hubris and the\nidiosyncrasies of his own psyche, avoiding moral and\nreligious truth in favour of solipsism and fantasy." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-01-31T12:30:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Ziggurat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 09:39 PM 1/30/00 -0800, NG wrote:\n\n in this context, then, \"The Ziggurat\" is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "one experiment of several in delineating how a\ncharacter can be led astray by hubris and the\nidiosyncrasies of his own psyche, avoiding moral and\nreligious truth in favour of solipsism and fantasy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tInteresting take. I'm intrigued. Please elaborate on\nhow you take the overall narrative. I'm interested in your\ninteraction with the specifics, especially a critique of my\nvery positive take on the story. It does not appear to me\nthat Emory \"avoids\" religious truth at all. (And I hope you won't\ntell us to wait for your printed review! How long would\nwe have to wait?)\n\tBTW, loved your review of the Silk quartet. \n\nNutria" } ] } ] }