{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2117", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2117, "subject": "Ziggurat as Delusion or SF", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2000-02-05T17:44:24+00:00", "last": "2000-02-10T13:09:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dennis G. Berdanis", "address": "endymion9 at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2000-02-05T17:44:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ziggurat as Delusion or SF", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've read a lot of the interesting posts concerning the *incest* slant, and\nthey definitely make me think. It's interesting to look back on things like\nthe twins hiding from that perspective and see things differently than when\nyou read the story the first time.\n\nFrom the incest standpoint the scenes I see differently.\n\n1. One twin hiding in the chimney and one under the bed. The aliens/girls\nattacking Emery with no apparent reason and biting him. Even shooting him\nin the first place.\n\n2. Brook died in the initial battle. Jan confronted Emery about the abuse,\nshe ended up grabbing the rifle and didn't know how to work it, Brook\ngrabbed it and knocked Jan out but was shot and died. All of the later\ndiscussions with Brook, had Brook praising Emery (if my memory is correct)\n\"You handled that so well\" type convos. That would be part of Emery's\ndelusion.\n\n3. The twin having her own delusion to explain away the abuse. The aliens\nmade me take off all my clothes, etc.\n\nWhat I am more interested in, however, are people's opinions if this is\ntruly a sf story.\n\n1. What caused our future society to abandon men and only allow female\nbirths? Would it be the traditional \"Men destroyed the world and can't be\nallowed to do it again. Women would never do that?\" That would explain the\nwomen's fear of men. I believe there was a new Outer Limits episode a few\nyears back that dealt with women experimenting with allowing men back into\nsociety in the future and deciding against it. The handful of men corrupted\nthe women, so no more were cloned.\n\n2. Why would this future society of women be so prone to violence? I can\nunderstand them robbing the cabin and vehicles to repair their ship. Why\nwould they be so determined to shoot anything they didn't understand? Why\nwould they force the twin to go to their ship and strip down then return\nher? For her eggs as other's have speculated?\n\nThese questions apply no matter which viewpoint of the story is taken.\n\n\n1. Why did Emery keep saying the coyote was killed with a cyanide gun.\nWhat is a cyanide gun exactly? How would he know it was killed with this\ntype of gun unless he did it?]\n\n2. Is it proper to call a place to store a dead body a bier? I kept\nexpecting Emery to give his son and the coyote a viking funeral and torch\nthem, but he only stored them yet called it a bier.\n\n3. What were Emery's plans for the coyote. I never understood, other than\nWolfe symbolism, what plans Emery could have for the frozen coyote body?\n\n\nThanks for any comments. Enjoyable read. Very thought provoking.\n\n\nDennis/Endy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-02-06T11:03:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Ziggurat as Delusion or SF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dennis G. Berdanis asked some questions, I think I can answer a few:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. What caused our future society to abandon men and only allow female\nbirths? Would it be the traditional \"Men destroyed the world and can't be\nallowed to do it again. Women would never do that?\" That would explain the\nwomen's fear of men. I believe there was a new Outer Limits episode a few\nyears back that dealt with women experimenting with allowing men back into\nsociety in the future and deciding against it. The handful of men corrupted\nthe women, so no more were cloned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hard to say what precisely caused it--however, the idea is not new to Wolfe--\n\"In Looking Glass Castle\" and \"Many Mansions\" both involve future female-only\nsocieties. In general, I think Wolfe's take on such societies is that they\nare indicative of a terrible failure of humanity to deal with its nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Why would this future society of women be so prone to violence? I can\nunderstand them robbing the cabin and vehicles to repair their ship. Why\nwould they be so determined to shoot anything they didn't understand? Why\nwould they force the twin to go to their ship and strip down then return\nher? For her eggs as other's have speculated?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think part of this is Wolfe's sly way of pointing out that men and women\nall _that_ different: the \"Brownies\" aren't pacifistic or over-trusting, and\ntheir behavior (intentionally I suspect) calls to mind the paranoid and panic\nstricken behavior of a lot of crews of crashed spaceships in alien territory\nover the history of sf. Remember: presumably at some point, their society\nCHOSE to eliminate men, so Emory is an almost mythical monster from the past\nin their eyes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. Why did Emery keep saying the coyote was killed with a cyanide gun.\nWhat is a cyanide gun exactly? How would he know it was killed with this\ntype of gun unless he did it?]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I finally looked this up on the web. I'd heard the term before and knew it\nwas some kind of animal trap, but couldn't remember the specifics:\n\"Also introduced in the 1940s was a revolutionary, deadly new predator weapon.\nThe \"coyote getter\" is a pistol cartridge-powered cyanide gun that shoots a\npuff of deadly sodium cyanide dust into the mouth of any carnivore, omnivore,\nor carrion-eater that tugs on its scented wick. On contact with the moisture in\nthe animal's mouth (or eyes, or wherever it hits) gas is released and the \nanimal is gassed to death (or blinded). A highly effective killer, the coyote \ngetter quickly gained widespread use. Eventually it was usurped by a newer \nmodel, the spring loaded \"M-44\" coyote getter, which is still used today. \nOver the years coyote getters have killed countless thousands of predators, \nnon-target animals, and even a few humans.\"\n(http://http://arrs.envirolink.org/ar-voices/eyeeye.html)\n\nEmory can tell because presumably the coyote is still beside the trap. THIS\nis, as far as I can tell, all that's involved in Emory's \"killing\" the coyote.\nHe taught it not to fear human smell and so it took the bait." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. What were Emery's plans for the coyote. I never understood, other than\nWolfe symbolism, what plans Emery could have for the frozen coyote body?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He wanted to give it a proper burial, as with his son. He felt (rightly, but\nin a limited sense) responsible for its death.\n\n\nIt's (in part) Emory's empathy for the coyote and his feeling of responsibility\nat its death that makes it hard for me to swallow the \"Emory is damned\" (see\nNicholas Gevers' \"Three readings\") interpretations of this story. \"Follow the\nWolfe\" for me does not lead to Emory as delusional or evil.\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William H. Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-02-06T23:56:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Ziggurat as Delusion or SF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alex David Groce wrote:\nDennis G. Berdanis asked some questions, I think I can answer a few:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1. Why did Emery keep saying the coyote was killed with a cyanide gun.\nWhat is a cyanide gun exactly? How would he know it was killed with this\ntype of gun unless he did it?]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I finally looked this up on the web. I'd heard the term before and knew it\nwas some kind of animal trap, but couldn't remember the specifics:\n\"Also introduced in the 1940s was a revolutionary, deadly new predator weapon.\nThe \"coyote getter\" is a pistol cartridge-powered cyanide gun that shoots a\npuff of deadly sodium cyanide dust into the mouth of any carnivore, omnivore,\nor carrion-eater that tugs on its scented wick. On contact with the\nmoisture in\nthe animal's mouth (or eyes, or wherever it hits) gas is released and the\nanimal is gassed to death (or blinded). A highly effective killer, the coyote\ngetter quickly gained widespread use. Eventually it was usurped by a newer\nmodel, the spring loaded \"M-44\" coyote getter, which is still used today.\nOver the years coyote getters have killed countless thousands of predators,\nnon-target animals, and even a few humans.\"\n(http://http://arrs.envirolink.org/ar-voices/eyeeye.html)\n\nEmory can tell because presumably the coyote is still beside the trap. THIS\nis, as far as I can tell, all that's involved in Emory's \"killing\" the coyote.\nHe taught it not to fear human smell and so it took the bait." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This supports my opinion that Emery's claim that he killed the coyote is\ncompletely absurd, for at least two reasons.\n\n1. Coyotes have become, in most places, quite adept at living with humans.\nThey eat livestock and garbage and have even been reported to attack small\ndogs. There is no reason to suppose that a coyote today would fear human\nscent.\n\n2. Even if we ignore point one, coyote getters have been used very\nsuccessfully for decades. Either the people who set them know how to\ndisguise their scent effectively or coyotes take the bait, despite the\nhuman scent.\n\nEmery, for whatever reason, wants to feel responsible for the coyote's\ndeath, even though such a feeling is completely unreasonable.\n\nOr, if we accept the \"Maximum Delusion\" hypothesis, Emery says he killed\nthe coyote because he actually did kill it directly (with gun or axe,\nperhaps) and he is hallucinating the cyanide gun sequence to assuage his\nguilt, but he can't escape it completely.\n\nI have to say, however, that if Wolfe really intended the \"Maximum\nDelusion\" reading of the story to be an \"equally valid\" one, then I wish he\nhadn't written it in the first place.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-02-10T13:09:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Ziggurat as Delusion or SF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:56 PM 2/6/00 -0500, you wrote:\n\nI have to say, however, that if Wolfe really intended the \"Maximum\nDelusion\" reading of the story to be an \"equally valid\" one, then I wish he\nhadn't written it in the first place.\n\nWilliam Ansley" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI really don't think we have to credit it. The motivation for this reading\nin the first place was to \"deliver\" Wolfe from the \"scandal\" of writing a\nstory that is \"negative\" about women. A better reading shows this is not a\nreal problem. The Max Del reading just does not work with the facts of the\nstory as they are presented. Parallels between the three women and the\nthree women, of course, are present.\n\tI think Gevers has done a good job, in general, of pointing to ambiguities\nin the story. I just don't think this particular approach is valid.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }