{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2155", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2155, "subject": "The two Typhons", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-03-14T06:06:07+00:00", "last": "2000-03-15T11:34:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Gevers", "address": "vermoulian at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2000-03-14T06:06:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The two Typhons", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "TYPHON AND PAS: A RECONCILIATION OF HISTORIES\n\nOne problem that Wolfe’s twelve-volume Sun Cycle\npresents is that of reconciling the details of\nTyphon’s reign given by Severian in THE URTH OF THE\nNEW SUN with the vast technological achievement\nrequired to build the “Whorl” as described in THE BOOK\nOF THE LONG SUN. Severian’s account is of an Urth\nsufficiently like his own later one that for a long\ntime he cannot see any difference: the language,\nphysical locations, and institutions are very similar,\nNessus and Saltus only somewhat less run down, the\ntechnological level recognisable in many respects,\nalthough the trucks (?) or taluses working on Mount\nTyphon are entirely unfamiliar. How, then, could\nTyphon have mustered the technical and economic\nresources invested in the “Whorl”, resources clearly\ninfinitely beyond those available to the Autarchs of\none or two thousand years later?\n\nI suggest that the answer is apparent simply in the\nterms of the question itself. From URTH, we know a\nnumber of things about Typhon’s policies as a ruler,\nnotably that his “assessors” collect a tax in human\nchildren, and that he is fond of huge prestige\nprojects, such as Mount Typhon; we know he desires\nimmortality. So it is easy to conceive of Severian’s\nTyphon wishing to build the “Whorl” and become its\npresiding god (Pas). And consider further: what would\nthe effect on Urth have been of the construction of\nthe “Whorl”, of the stripping away of so many of its\npeople and “chems”, its technology, minerals, water?\nAnswer: Urth would have become the ravaged, pillaged,\ndenuded, and depopulated world inherited by the\nAutarchs. Typhon initially ruled a much richer and\nmore advanced Urth, but asset-stripped it. In order\nthat Silk’s Whorl could come to be, Severian’s\nimpoverished Urth had to be created.\n\nA corollary: the Typhon Severian encounters in SWORD\nand in URTH is an abandoned version of the tyrant,\nleft behind when Pas and his innumerable Cargo\ndeparted Urth. He is still Typhon, and still desires\nto rule, but lacks the continued means necessary, his\nimmortal self having made off with the same. The\nexperiment with two heads was never going to ensure\nimmortality; digitization made far better sense, and\nthe bicephalic ogre of Mount Typhon is a discarded\nprototype with a futile will of its own." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Jeenicke", "address": "thomas_jeenicke at public.uni-hamburg.de" }, "date": "2000-03-15T09:32:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re:The two Typhons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nicholas Gevers wrote (message dated 14 Mar 2000 06:06:7):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... How, then, could Typhon have mustered the technical and economic\nresources invested in the \"Whorl\", resources clearly infinitely beyond\nthose\navailable to the Autarchs of one or two thousend years later? ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mostly agree with Your explanation, but like to add a thought: Typhon and\nhis followers are probably not Urth-natives but came from another planet in\nthe same system (Mars or Venus). While constructing the Whorl, Typhon might\nvery well still rule other worlds besides Urth and could have used their\nresources, too.\n\nBack to the message:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... the Typhon Severian encounters in SWORD and in URTH is an abandoned\nversion of the tyrant, left behind when Pas and his innumerable Cargo\ndeparted\nUrth ... The experiment with two heads was never going to ensure\nimmortality,\ndigitization made far better sense, and the bicephalic ogre of Mount Typhon\nis\na discarded prototype with a futile will of its own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That ist possible, but it doesn't seem necessary or even likely to me. The\n\"ogre\" obviously works quite well. Probably he was \"turned down\" only\nbecause of the political situatuion, not because of (bio-)technical\nproblems. And if the new body should fail, Typhon could have his head\ntransplated onto another victim. Why should digitalization be better than\nthen this method? Maybe they are both equivalent tries to achieve\nimmortality.\n\nOne last thought: These are interesting questions, but maybe we should not\ntake them too serious. I don't know, but I doubt that Wolfe really wanted to\ncreate a coherent super-series consisting of the New Sun and Long Sun/Short\nSun books and othér works (like Tolkien did with his MiddleEarth stories).\nHas Wolfe ever said something about the connection between the two/three\nseries (perhaps in an interview)?\n\nThomas" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-03-15T11:34:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re:The two Typhons", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Jeenicke wrote:\n\nNicholas Gevers wrote (message dated 14 Mar 2000 06:06:7):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... How, then, could Typhon have mustered the technical and economic\nresources invested in the \"Whorl\", resources clearly infinitely beyond\nthose\navailable to the Autarchs of one or two thousend years later? ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mostly agree with Your explanation, but like to add a thought: Typhon and\nhis followers are probably not Urth-natives but came from another planet in\nthe same system (Mars or Venus). While constructing the Whorl, Typhon might\nvery well still rule other worlds besides Urth and could have used their\nresources, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I might be dreaming, conflating other stories or just\nmisunderstanding but I have the recollection that Typhon came to and\n'conquered' Urth determined to make it the centre of his 'empire'\nthe planet having previously been something of a backwater.\n\nI took this as Typhon wanting to add some grandure or legitimacy to\nhis title by establishing himself on human-kind's ancient\nhomeworld. And at the same time an indication (to us) of the\n'retrenchment' of humanity as it (or at least the Urth part of it\nthat we see) withdraws into the near isolation of Severian's time.\n\nIt had never occured to me that Typhon might have dificulty\nconstructing the Whorl - apart from those problems consistant with\nthe narative itself - because I'd always assumed him to have\ninter-stella capability anyway.\n\nAm I completely mistaken?\n\nIf I am not then the contradiction is not in resources or technology\nbut the question why he might have chosen the ark-ship method of\nestablishing his new colony to which I might suggest (a) sending it\nbeyond previously know space (the time scale is wrong) or that the\nchoices were deliberate to enable the social engineering he wanted\nfor the greater glorification of the god Pas.\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }