{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2198", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2198, "subject": "Digest urth.v028.n185", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2000-04-18T12:52:13+00:00", "last": "2000-04-19T15:36:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nil_Ultra", "address": "nil_ultra at email.msn.com" }, "date": "2000-04-18T12:52:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n185", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. The book's cover shows Ransom struggling and apparently defeating an\napeman. This anticipates the narrative in the semi-real world. Also, surely\nRansom is a nod to Lewis, and to Jesus. Compare Ransom's wrestling with the\nMorlockian Un-Man in *Perelandra.* Also remember that humanity made itself\nbestial by listening to a serpent at the beginning of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria, Great post, certainly a lot to think about, but as far as number\nthree I would have to disagree in regard to man becoming bestial; It seems\nmore the opposite; by eating of the fruit of knowledge, humanity separated\nitself from the beasts, and the paradise of ignorance and innocence that\nthey live in. Of course, this abandonment of innocence is what allows the\npotential for both good and evil." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-04-18T13:42:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n185", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:52 PM 4/18/00 -0400, you wrote:\n\nNutria, Great post, certainly a lot to think about, but as far as number\nthree I would have to disagree in regard to man becoming bestial; It seems\nmore the opposite; by eating of the fruit of knowledge, humanity separated\nitself from the beasts, and the paradise of ignorance and innocence that\nthey live in. Of course, this abandonment of innocence is what allows the\npotential for both good and evil." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, but your view sounds more like Mormonism and certain other\ntheologies than what Wolfe himself would believe. No need to debate the\ntheology one way or another here. It's just a matter of what Wolfe as a\nconservative Catholic would be working with.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Richard Horton", "address": "rrhorton at prodigy.net" }, "date": "2000-04-18T20:22:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n185", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:10:10 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:\nI don't think \"contemporary scholarship\" is that monolithic. A lot of\nthose authorship debates seem to me to be based on too little evidence.\nSome of the arguments I've seen for that position could be used to prove\nthat the Gene Wolfe who wrote the New Sun books is not the same person who\nwrote the Long Sun books (significant stylistic differences, a large chunk\nof vocabulary unique to one series or the other, different tehological\nideas and concerns, etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, though I'd be interested in seeing what lexical analysis\nof the sort used to address authorship questions of Biblical books\nwould do with New Sun/Long Sun. On the face of it, the styles are\nprofoundly different: no one can have failed to notice this. I\nwouldn't be surprised, however, if underlying similarities were\ndetected.\n\nI confess I don't really know enough about these techniques to say\nmuch more than : \"I've read the articles\".\n\nWe should note that (unlike for instance some of the Epistles now felt\nby many not to have been written by Paul) there is no attribution\nwithin Revelation to John the Apostle." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- \nRich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard.horton at sff.net\nHome Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton\nAlso visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.sfsite.com/tangent)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-04-18T23:56:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n185", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum rote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 16 Apr 2000, Richard Horton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 12 Apr 2000 06:10:41 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Even fewer people know there is no such book as \"RevelationS\". :-) It's\nthe Revelation of St. John, or the Apocalypse of St. John, or Revelation,\nor Apocalypse, or The Revelation of Jesus Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Attributing it to \"St. John\" is controversial as well, as contemporary\nscholarship seems to agree that John of Patmos, the author of\nRevelation, is not the apostle John." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think \"contemporary scholarship\" is that monolithic. A lot of\nthose authorship debates seem to me to be based on too little evidence.\nSome of the arguments I've seen for that position could be used to prove\nthat the Gene Wolfe who wrote the New Sun books is not the same person who\nwrote the Long Sun books (significant stylistic differences, a large chunk\nof vocabulary unique to one series or the other, different tehological\nideas and concerns, etc.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The scholarship is not that \"contemporary\" regarding Revelation. It was suspect from the gitgo, with several more sober bishops strongly objecting to it when the 4th century canon was put together. It crawled in because of popular superstition that John the gospeleer wrote it, though more educated folk with a good \"ear\" even at that early time found this highly unlikely, and said so. There were lots of similarly apocalyptic texts around, this one being an anti-Rome rant with historical references to Babylon, Israel's prior primo peeve. Modern textual analysis makes the two completely incompatible. \"John of Patmos\" is the name given to the unknown author of what Harold Bloom (and his insignificant follower, me) call a \"rancid\" book. OTOH, as a heathen, I do think that it has pepped up the religion considerably! For TV evangelists, say, suicidal cults, and plenty of morons everywhere!\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Fusch", "address": "dfusch at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2000-04-19T15:36:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n185", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Alice Turner\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"John of Patmos\" is the name given to the unknown author of what Harold \nBloom (and his insignificant follower, me) call a \"rancid\" book. OTOH, as a \nheathen, I do think that it has pepped up the religion considerably! For TV \nevangelists, say, suicidal cults, and plenty of morons everywhere!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-alga" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to balance the discussion of the aesthetics of Revelation....\n\nI think Revelation is a spectacularly poetic work, with some gems of great \nbeauty. I've always found the sixth chapter (the four horsemen) particularly \ngood. And then heaven with the lamps on the crystal sea. And the \nend--something along the lines of \"they will need neither candles nor sun \nfor God will be their light.\" Very beautiful. Associated with suicidal cults \nor not, I still think Revelation is one of those books that really deserves \nto be read.\n\nJust my humble opinion,\nDaniel" } ] } ] }