{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2231", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2231, "subject": "Digest urth.v028.n198", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2000-05-03T13:50:45+00:00", "last": "2000-05-08T11:37:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan Parmenter", "address": "dan at lec.com" }, "date": "2000-05-03T13:50:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n198", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Alice Turner\" \nI wonder about that. I felt that Holdstock was coming from the older\nBritish tradition, and also from the fact that Britain (including\nScotland) during the 60s and 70s was a place where far-out experimental\npsychology, with and without drugs--generally LSD--, was getting a lot\nof attention (Laing and such, also Doris Lessing). I've only read the\none (first) book, but I did review it, so I read it carefully. LSD as a\npsychiatric drug makes a lot of sense re that book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo. Also bear in mind the name of the central family in the\nMythago Wood books - Huxley. Given Aldous Huxley's interest in\nhallucinogens, this is a clear signpost. Without being an expert on\nJung or Joseph Campbell, their influence also seems to loom over the\nseries. I'm a huge fan of several of the Mythago books, especially\nthe first one. I don't see it as being in the Lovecraft (beyond the\n\"my father is a lunatic who toys with Strange Forces which later\nconsume me\" angle) or the British fantasy tradition at all - I've\nalways thought of MW as almost being the anti-Narnia. It's a \"Wood\nBetween the Worlds\", but Ryhope Wood is a brutal and savage place.\nHoldstock's early writing is unsubtle and brutal as well, but filled\nwith many images that linger.\n\nThe first sequel, LAVONDYSS, continues the feel of the first, but the\nsubsequent books in the series like THE HOLLOWING and GATE OF\nIVORY/GATE OF HORN are, IMO, pretty bad. Everything that was\nambiguous and mysterious in the first book has been reduced to the\nlevel of fantasy role-playhing game mechanics, indeed, it often reads\nlike a description of an FRP campaign rather than a novel. The other\nproblem with the series is that Holdstock has now told us the exact\nsame story from three different points of view (including the novella\ncalled \"The Bone Forest\") which is much less interesting than it\nsounds.\n\nLex Shellac\n\np.s. Re: Emma Bull - an appreciation of electrified folk-rock music of\nthe Fairport Convention school can be very helpful for stuff like WAR\nOF THE OAKS. The book itself practically tells you what the\nsoundtrack is by dropping in various musical references.\n\np.p.s. Hmmm, now I'm getting off-topic. I suspect that Gene Wolfe\nwouldn't really like any of these books :-) There, I got him in!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-05-03T23:07:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n198", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From the Kind and Helpful Ratso (what a paradox!)!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I came upon a Persian parable called _The Parliament of the Birds_,\nwhich\nsupplied me with a plot remarkably -- uncannily -- suited to what I\nhad\naltready thought up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For heavens's sake! Chaucer wrote \"The Parliament of Foules\" (Fowls)\nwhich I read in somewhat cribbed Middle English back when I was an\nEnglish major in college, but I don't remember (a) it (though if I had\nthe energy I could leap from my seat and consult my old textbook); or\n(b) that there was a Persian original. Where would Chaucer have got it\nfrom? But I'm sure he did. Crowley is quite scrupulous with period\ndetails in -The Deep- (as I prove in my esssay on the same that so few\nof you [humiliatingly for me] wish to read)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Lastly, I had toyed for some time with the idea of writing a story,\nor a\nseries of stories, about a powerful mage who solves crimes or puzzles\nlike\na detective, puzzles that turn out to be cosmogonic or otherwise\nearthshaking: the reawakening of a sleeping emperor, for instance --\nor\nsomething like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's Hawksquill, sort of. He didn't pull that part off, I feel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, this all came together. A last quotation: \"... Among the very\nfirst\nimages I had had of my family was of a man packing his married life in\na\nbag and setting off on a final journey: and some eight years later I\nwrote\ndown that scene, close (at last!) to the end of the book, the book you\nhave.\"\nSo, there it is for those who don't have it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, the Gladstone bag, which I (erroneously, but not, I feel,\naltogether erroneously) attributed to Mary Poppins in yet another of my\nunderappreciated essays. It's a marvelous image.\n\nRat rants on re Hawksquill (and given the Alice factor here, perhaps you\nought to stick to my Vironese name):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unpersuaded am I, Alice. It does not seem so simple, and Ariel\nHawksquill\nis the problem. Where does she get fairy blood? But then again\n(against\nme), she's not conceived in the pentacle either. I guess you could say\nthat\nOliver H. gets \"infected\" by Violet -- a kind of Fairy VD -- and then\nthis\nis passed to his daughter Ariel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hawksquill is a cousin, but not on the Violet side. Ayee. No rejoinder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The chart does not strike me as \"evidence\" either way. The backstory,\nit\nseems to me, is to establish that the Rev. Bramble was an apostate\nAnglican, turning away from Christianity and possibly scientific\nhumanism\ntoward fairy magic, and this is the point of initiation of the \"tale.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That sounds somewhat accusatory. Lots of Victorians were experimenting\nwith \"spiritism\" and that's what JC was playing with, granted.\n\nFrom mantis, alluding to yet another of my undervalued essays:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which is why I brought up Tarot before. As alga mentioned long time\npast,\nthe tarot deck varies in number of cards (there isn't really a\n\"standard\"\nexcept by more or less arbitrary), but it is alway much more than 52." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "52 deck, aka the deck of standard playing cards, forms the basis for\nthe\nJCdeck (not to be confused with \"the Crowley Tarot\"!!) as it appears\nin THE\nDEEP and LITTLE, BIG.\n\nSo you see where I'm heading with this: the old \"real\" Tarot reflects\nthe\nold order of fairies. The shifting of numbers, arranged from high to\nlow\nas if a sequence across time, reflects their real dying off. Through\nthe\nhistory of the real Tarot deck, from many cards to fewer, we see\nreflected\nthe hidden history of the fairies.\n\n(Over-reading? Who, me?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you do overread. But JC plays fast and loose with the Tarot,\nadapting it to suit his needs, and I think this is entirely legitimate\nin his contexts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Questions of heaven and hell. Granted, there is ambiguity as to\nwhether\nthe formerly human are evolving upward toward angel status or\ndevolving\ndownward into nature idols. This is a point you've made and I agree\nwith\nit.\n\nThat whatever-it-is that happens to Alice & Co. isn't simply death\nseems to\nbe the case, because if so, then Smoky would show up at the party,\nsince we\nknow he just died. Maybe. That is, there is some sort of division\nbetween\nSmoky and the group. So you (Nutria) suppose that he has gone to\nheaven,\nwhile the group (Alice & Co., not alga & friends) takes a detour\nthrough\nhell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No I don't! I don't accept this at all. I don't (a) think there's any\nobjective (literary) evidence that Smoky has gone to heaven. (Adam,\nprove me wrong.) As I've said, I have doubts that JC remains a\nChristian, and though I also said that Smoky is a kind of saint, I am\nnot sure that the reward for this kind of sainthood is \"heaven.\" As\nopposed to (b) hell---I absolutely reject that, in this novel,\nfairyland, or wherever it is that our friends end up in, is equated with\nhell. I know that other writers have experimented with that, but no, no,\nno, not here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possible. But you know how JC keeps turning things over, examining\nthings\nin other works: don't forget \"Her Bounty to the Dead\" (in\nANTIQUITIES).\nHere the afterlife situation is basically this (iirc): there is only\nso\nmuch room in heaven, so if you'd rather go into non-being, that's\nfine. Or\n\"everybody gets the afterlife they want and feel they deserve\" kind of\na\nthing.\n\nSo, in the JC universe, there are many options as to \"where Smoky goes\nwhen\nhe dies.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, you tempered it. But you're still being kind of sneaky.\n\nTo which the Rightious Rat added:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sorry I was not more clear. I don't think Alice etal. really died, but\nthat their transition is parallel to Smoky's death. \"heaven and hell\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "are" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "probably too loaded as terms to describe the two avenues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed!\n\n-alga!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-05-04T10:36:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n198", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 23:07 2000-05-03 -0400, Alice Turner wrote:\n... Crowley is quite scrupulous with period" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "details in -The Deep- (as I prove in my esssay on the same that so few\nof you [humiliatingly for me] wish to read)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to read it! It was lucky I noticed this sentence, though,\nsince I am skipping the Little, Big discussion until I have the\ntime to read it (the book, that is) properly. It's most frustrating\nnot being able to take part! Not that I would have much to offer,\nvery likely; I am still trying to spot the hidden story (if there\nis one) in \"Pandora by Holly Hollander\". Clues, anyone?\n\nSBear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-05-05T08:51:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n198", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "alga wrote:\nCrowley is quite scrupulous with period\ndetails in -The Deep- (as I prove in my esssay on the same that so few\nof you [humiliatingly for me] wish to read)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only reasons I didn't request it are that I don't have my copy of\nTHE DEEP with me and remember almost nothing about it, and I don't know\nif my dinky laptop can even handle attachments." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, the Gladstone bag, which I (erroneously, but not, I feel,\naltogether erroneously) attributed to Mary Poppins in yet another of my\nunderappreciated essays." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not by me; once I finally saw it (I switched over from the digest to the\nindividual messages, and temporarily missed a few) I liked it a lot,\nalthough the wrapping difficulty did make it hard to read. I spotted a\ncouple allusions to children's literature in LB that your article didn't\nmention, but I'm sure it wasn't intended to be exhaustive. I'd love to\nsee an exhaustive list as a first step towards a set of annotations, but\nI'm not sure this list is the proper place to collect material." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From mantis, alluding to yet another of my undervalued essays:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I wrote in my reply to mantis, I never saw this one (on the tarot),\nbut I'd like to.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-05-08T11:37:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v028.n198", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/04/2000 04:07:37 AM Alice Turner wrote:\nFrom the Kind and Helpful Ratso (what a paradox!)!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I came upon a Persian parable called _The Parliament of the Birds_,\nwhich supplied me with a plot remarkably -- uncannily -- suited to what\nI had altready thought up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For heavens's sake! Chaucer wrote \"The Parliament of Foules\" (Fowls)\nwhich I read in somewhat cribbed Middle English back when I was an\nEnglish major in college, but I don't remember (a) it (though if I had\nthe energy I could leap from my seat and consult my old textbook); or\n(b) that there was a Persian original. Where would Chaucer have got it\nfrom?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aescelus? (pardon my spellin')\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }