{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2250", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2250, "subject": "Wolfe and Crowley, ancient and Renaissance", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2000-05-09T08:54:39+00:00", "last": "2000-05-12T09:06:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-05-09T08:54:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe and Crowley, ancient and Renaissance", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Tarot discussion got me wondering whether Wolfe ever alludes to the\nTarot. I couldn't recall his doing so at all. Then it occurred to me\nthat not only does Wolfe ignore completely, iirc, the whole field of\nRenaissance magic which so fascinates Crowley; aside from the anomaly of\nTHE DEVIL IN A FOREST, he pretty much ignores the whole of medieval and\nRenaissance Europe as a source of allusion or intellectual background (I\nwould tend to see the Arthurian backdrop of CASTLEVIEW as a reference to\nmyth in general, rather than medieval Europe in particular, and the same\nwith the Irish legends in PEACE). This strikes me as being unusual for\na self-confessed Catholic author and admirer of Chesterton. On the\nother hand, the classical Greco-Roman world is all over the place: the\nSOLDIER books, obviously, but also the pseudo-classical gods and\ngoddesses in BOTLS and THERE ARE DOORS; the setting of BOTNS is modeled\nafter the Byzantine Empire, which was contemporaneous with medieval\nEurope, but which had much less of a break with the ancient world; even\nthe conjurations of the witch in THERE ARE DOORS and in Gold's fake\nNecronomicon in PEACE seemed to me closer to ancient Greco-Roman magic\nthan to medieval or Renaissance magic, iirc. Of course, it's been a\nlong time since I read most of these, and I don't have copies close at\nhand, so I could be completely wrong.\n\nOn the other hand, while Crowley is fascinated by Renaissance magic, he\ndoesn't ignore the classical world. In fact, the conflict between the\ntwo is a minor subtheme of LB: both Smoky and (or so it seems to me)\nAriel Hawksquill have minds molded by the classics, though Ariel is of\ncourse aware of the Renaissance tradition; and both are made to\nunwillingly recognize the truth of the Renaissance magic worldview.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-05-10T16:30:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe and Crowley, ancient and Renaissance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 08:54 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:\nOn the other hand, while Crowley is fascinated by Renaissance magic, he\ndoesn't ignore the classical world. In fact, the conflict between the\ntwo is a minor subtheme of LB: both Smoky and (or so it seems to me)\nAriel Hawksquill have minds molded by the classics, though Ariel is of\ncourse aware of the Renaissance tradition; and both are made to\nunwillingly recognize the truth of the Renaissance magic worldview.\n\n--Adam" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWondering a bit what you meant by that last phrase.\n\tAlso, if the fairies are grandchildren of Kronos, then Smoky's classical\neducation, and his love of the stars, would seem again to be pointing in\nthe opposite direction from the fate of the Drinkwaters & Co. As there is a\nhierarchy of worlds/spheres here, it seems that there is a world larger\nthan the one in which the House is situated. Which I gather would revise\nMantis's scheme of the system of worlds....\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-05-12T09:06:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe and Crowley, ancient and Renaissance", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria wrote:\n\nAt 08:54 AM 5/9/00 -0700, [Adam] wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "both Smoky and (or so it seems to me)\nAriel Hawksquill have minds molded by the classics, though Ariel is of\ncourse aware of the Renaissance tradition; and both are made to\nunwillingly recognize the truth of the Renaissance magic worldview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Wondering a bit what you meant by that last phrase." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I didn't mean anything very precise; I was conflating \"the\nRenaissance magic worldview\" with belief in the existence and importance\nof the fairies. Ariel may or may not be aware of the fairies' existence\nat the start, but until almost the end, she regards them and their\n\"small worlds\" as a sideshow compared to Eigenblick's activities. I\nstill think it's significant that both Smoky and Ariel are classically\ntrained, but I'd probably have to reread the whole book to figure out\nhow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Also, if the fairies are grandchildren of Kronos, then Smoky's classical\neducation, and his love of the stars, would seem again to be pointing in\nthe opposite direction from the fate of the Drinkwaters & Co." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now I'm not sure what you mean. If the fairies are grandchildren of\nKronos, then they are probably children of the gods.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }