# Wolfe and Crowley, ancient and Renaissance

*The Urth list — 3 messages, 2 voices, 09 May 2000*

<https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2250>

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### Adam Stephanides
*09 May 2000, 08:54*

The Tarot discussion got me wondering whether Wolfe ever alludes to the
Tarot.  I couldn't recall his doing so at all.  Then it occurred to me
that not only does Wolfe ignore completely, iirc, the whole field of
Renaissance magic which so fascinates Crowley; aside from the anomaly of
THE DEVIL IN A FOREST, he pretty much ignores the whole of medieval and
Renaissance Europe as a source of allusion or intellectual background (I
would tend to see the Arthurian backdrop of CASTLEVIEW as a reference to
myth in general, rather than medieval Europe in particular, and the same
with the Irish legends in PEACE).  This strikes me as being unusual for
a self-confessed Catholic author and admirer of Chesterton.  On the
other hand, the classical Greco-Roman world is all over the place: the
SOLDIER books, obviously, but also the pseudo-classical gods and
goddesses in BOTLS and THERE ARE DOORS; the setting of BOTNS is modeled
after the Byzantine Empire, which was contemporaneous with medieval
Europe, but which had much less of a break with the ancient world; even
the conjurations of the witch in THERE ARE DOORS and in Gold's fake
Necronomicon in PEACE seemed to me closer to ancient Greco-Roman magic
than to medieval or Renaissance magic, iirc.  Of course, it's been a
long time since I read most of these, and I don't have copies close at
hand, so I could be completely wrong.

On the other hand, while Crowley is fascinated by Renaissance magic, he
doesn't ignore the classical world.  In fact, the conflict between the
two is a minor subtheme of LB: both Smoky and (or so it seems to me)
Ariel Hawksquill have minds molded by the classics, though Ariel is of
course aware of the Renaissance tradition; and both are made to
unwillingly recognize the truth of the Renaissance magic worldview.

--Adam

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### Jim Jordan
*10 May 2000, 16:30 · follows Adam Stephanides*

> At 08:54 AM 5/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
> On the other hand, while Crowley is fascinated by Renaissance magic, he
> doesn't ignore the classical world.  In fact, the conflict between the
> two is a minor subtheme of LB: both Smoky and (or so it seems to me)
> Ariel Hawksquill have minds molded by the classics, though Ariel is of
> course aware of the Renaissance tradition; and both are made to
> unwillingly recognize the truth of the Renaissance magic worldview.
> 
> --Adam

	Wondering a bit what you meant by that last phrase.
	Also, if the fairies are grandchildren of Kronos, then Smoky's classical
education, and his love of the stars, would seem again to be pointing in
the opposite direction from the fate of the Drinkwaters & Co. As there is a
hierarchy of worlds/spheres here, it seems that there is a world larger
than the one in which the House is situated. Which I gather would revise
Mantis's scheme of the system of worlds....

Nutria

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### Adam Stephanides
*12 May 2000, 09:06 · follows Jim Jordan*

> Nutria wrote:
> 
> At 08:54 AM 5/9/00 -0700, [Adam] wrote:

>> both Smoky and (or so it seems to me)
>> Ariel Hawksquill have minds molded by the classics, though Ariel is of
>> course aware of the Renaissance tradition; and both are made to
>> unwillingly recognize the truth of the Renaissance magic worldview.

>         Wondering a bit what you meant by that last phrase.

I guess I didn't mean anything very precise; I was conflating "the
Renaissance magic worldview" with belief in the existence and importance
of the fairies.  Ariel may or may not be aware of the fairies' existence
at the start, but until almost the end, she regards them and their
"small worlds" as a sideshow compared to Eigenblick's activities.  I
still think it's significant that both Smoky and Ariel are classically
trained, but I'd probably have to reread the whole book to figure out
how.

>         Also, if the fairies are grandchildren of Kronos, then Smoky's classical
> education, and his love of the stars, would seem again to be pointing in
> the opposite direction from the fate of the Drinkwaters & Co.

Now I'm not sure what you mean.  If the fairies are grandchildren of
Kronos, then they are probably children of the gods.

--Adam

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