{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2264", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2264, "subject": "Pelagianism", "messages": 11, "voices": 7, "first": "2000-05-19T10:20:50+00:00", "last": "2000-05-25T08:36:32+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "pei047 at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-05-19T10:20:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We've never discussed this, have we?\n\nIn CLAW, just before they dine on baked Thecla,Vodalus gives a\nflint-like object to Sev to give to his \"agent\" at the House Absolute\n(the autarch). The agent will identify himself with the phrase, \"The\npelagic argosy sights land.\" Later, if he should give Sev a further\nmessage, the recipient will use the phrase, \"I am from the quercine\npenetralia,\" i.e. the heart of the oak--which is truer than Vodalus\nknows.\n\nPelagic, as a simple adjective, means oceanic, deep-sea. But there is a\nChristian heresy named after Pelagius, a strong rival to Augustine of\nHippo (who nailed down a great deal of Christian doctrine, including\nsome of the most intractable). The position of Pelagius was that the\ndoctrine of Grace, as taught by Augustine, was in opposition to the\ndoctrine of Free Will, and ultimately was productive of moral laxity.\nPelagius was condemned several times (usually by a narrow margin), but\nin practice, Western Christianity has wavered between his side and\nAugustine's ever since.\n\nThe basic points were a rejection of Original Sin (Adam was merely a bad\nexample); thus there is no need for salvation through Christ as it can\nbe achieved by one's own efforts (Christ was merely a good example).\nMan, not God, is responsible for man's depravity (and Pelagius found\nplenty of depravity in Rome), and it is entirely possible for a man,\neven before Christ, to be sinless--we can choose our path. Infant\nbaptism, one of Augustine's most controversial stands (unbaptized babies\nwere damned, which, to some of us, seems like an extraordinarily\nperverse superstition) was rejected. You can check all this out at\nlength in the online Catholic Encyclopedia.\n\nTaking the position that Wolfe does not use words, especially unusual\nwords with a religious slant, lightly or accidentally, how does this\npertain to the Vodalus position?\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-05-19T11:50:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would make considerable sense as an intentional linkage. Vodalus,\nfor one thing, is an ally of the Ascians. Ascia is, among other\nthings, Wolfe's version of a Communist state. The idea that Communism\nis a kind of radical Christian heresy, sometimes considered an\nextension of a particularly extreme Pelagianism, is well-known. In\nthis case, also, the rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin can\nprobably be fruitfully compared to Vodalus' goals of returning to the\nstars and empire--never mind those interfering \"holy slave\"\nbusybodies, reclaiming man's lost glory.\n\nChesterton's HERETICS probably wasn't the first place where the\nidentification (not a main point of the book) of modern non-Christian\nideologies with old and still-kicking Christian heresies was made, but\nI'll bet Wolfe's read it, along with a number of other writers who've\ntaken this approach (after all, Wolfe says his political views were\nonce well-described by the phrase \"Buckley conservative\", and Buckley\ncan't mention Communism without saying \"immanentize the eschaton\" at\nleast twice). More generally, beyond Pelagianism, Wolfe certainly (in\nNew Sun) allies all his players with faiths, true or false--and marks\nthe false ones as such by indicating that their \"line to the Increate\"\nis broken. Certainly Baldanders is not the (I think Wolfe would say\nmythical) rational scientist, but a follower of a rigorous doctrine\n(his action with the Claw, for instance). All of these doctrines,\nthough, even in Long Sun, where they more clearly are based in part on\nother religions, and even the \"witch-doctors\" of the jungle, are, in\nWolfe's world, derived from and broken off in reaction against the\nIncreate/Outsider, and thus heresies rather than true, free-standing\nsystems.\n\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Greene, Carlton", "address": "cgreene2 at hunton.com" }, "date": "2000-05-19T12:36:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Severian is Pelagic in the sense that mankind's savoir achieves\nsalvation for himself and Urth by an act of free will -- renouncing the life\nof cruelty and decadence represented by his guild and choosing mercy. This\nis apparent in the test of Yesod as well, which turns not on faith in the\nIncreate, but one man's personal spiritual accomplishments during his\nlifetime.\n\nGiven the other meaning of Pelagic, perhaps it is no surprise that some of\nthe moments when Sev fights internal moral battles over what kind of person\nhe will be take place in deep water (I am referring in particular to his\ncolloquies with the undines in books 1 and 4 (I think)). \n\nCarlton\n\n\n\n\n\nworks" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-05-19T20:04:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm hoping this is the beginning of an interesting discussion, not\nmaking positional points of my own.\n\nAlex,\n\nThe idea that Communism" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is a kind of radical Christian heresy, sometimes considered an\nextension of a particularly extreme Pelagianism, is well-known." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it difficult to understand how such a doctrinaire belief as\nCommunism could endorse a radical embracement of Free Will. Could you\nexplain a bit?\n\n In this case, also, the rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin can" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "probably be fruitfully compared to Vodalus' goals of returning to the\nstars and empire--never mind those interfering \"holy slave\"\nbusybodies, reclaiming man's lost glory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't get your reasoning here, either, though it seems interesting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Chesterton's HERETICS probably wasn't the first place where the\nidentification (not a main point of the book) of modern non-Christian\nideologies with old and still-kicking Christian heresies was made, but\nI'll bet Wolfe's read it, along with a number of other writers who've\ntaken this approach (after all, Wolfe says his political views were\nonce well-described by the phrase \"Buckley conservative\", and Buckley\ncan't mention Communism without saying \"immanentize the eschaton\" at\nleast twice). More generally, beyond Pelagianism, Wolfe certainly (in\nNew Sun) allies all his players with faiths, true or false--and marks\nthe false ones as such by indicating that their \"line to the Increate\"\nis broken. Certainly Baldanders is not the (I think Wolfe would say\nmythical) rational scientist, but a follower of a rigorous doctrine\n(his action with the Claw, for instance). All of these doctrines,\nthough, even in Long Sun, where they more clearly are based in part on\nother religions, and even the \"witch-doctors\" of the jungle, are, in\nWolfe's world, derived from and broken off in reaction against the\nIncreate/Outsider, and thus heresies rather than true, free-standing\nsystems." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If this is true in a parallel way--I don't think it is--I'd like to see\na mantis-like chart equating one to another. I don't think it can be\ndone, but I'd truly applaud the person who proves me wrong.\n\nCarlton,\n\nThe Pelagic movement does not pertain to Sev but to Vodalus. It is\nVodalus who gives the pass-phrase, and Vodalus to whom we must look for\nsome meaning to the \"heresy,\" if that is what it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps Severian is Pelagic in the sense that mankind's savoir\nachieves\nsalvation for himself and Urth by an act of free will -- renouncing\nthe life\nof cruelty and decadence represented by his guild and choosing mercy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is apparent in the test of Yesod as well, which turns not on faith in\nthe\nIncreate, but one man's personal spiritual accomplishments during his\nlifetime.\n\nGiven the other meaning of Pelagic, perhaps it is no surprise that\nsome of\nthe moments when Sev fights internal moral battles over what kind of\nperson\nhe will be take place in deep water (I am referring in particular to\nhis\ncolloquies with the undines in books 1 and 4 (I think))." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-05-20T11:19:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tIt's been a while since I read the Severian books, but as I recall there\nis an interlocked tension in the Commonwealth between the absolute power of\nthe autarch and the anarchy advocated by Vodalus. Translate that into\ntheological terms, and you have determinism on the one hand, and\nPelagianism on the other. Between, or above, them is the Christian doctrine\nof predestination, which affirms both divine superintendence and human\nfreedom together as a mystery (which is the better way of understanding the\nAugustinian position, even if there are infelicities in his own expression\nthereof -- Aug was not saying that everything is fixed and men are just\nrobots). If I were going to run with this, I'd investigate whether\nSeverian, as agent of the Increate, is providing an example of the\nChristian (Thomist, Wolfean) doctrine.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-05-21T09:17:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I understand it, the orthodox, anti-Pelagian position does not deny\nthe existence of free will, as Nutria points out; nor does it deny that\nthe unsaved can perform virtuous acts (although these acts will always\nbe tainted by sin); nor does it deny that good works can play a role in\nsalvation (that was, after all, one of the major issues of the\nReformation). Rather, it denies that humans can free themselves from\nsin, or attain salvation, by their own unaided efforts. And Severian's\ncareer illustrates this throughout. He never frees himself from sin,\niirc (though it's been a while since I last read the books). He doesn't\nbecome the Conciliator, or bring the New Sun, through his own unaided\nefforts. And given that he is manipulated throughout his life by\ntime-travellers who know his destiny, it is questionable how much free\nwill he actually has (though I've never really understood this aspect of\nthe books).\n\nIt has always seemed to me that the contrast between Loyal to the Group\nof Seventeen's story and Folia's story exemplifies the contrast between\nthe Pelagian and orthodox views of salvation. The protagonist of Loyal\nto the Group of Seventeen's story succeeds through his own persistence;\nthe protagonist of Folia's story \"gains\" the princess through the\nprincess's free gift, though he has to be able to recognize this gift.\n\n(As for the \"trial\" and \"battle royal\" on Yesod, I'm not sure how they\nfit in to this, because I find that whole aspect of the Hierogrammates'\nplan very obscure, as I've said before.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-05-21T13:30:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:\nI find it difficult to understand how such a doctrinaire belief as\nCommunism could endorse a radical embracement of Free Will. Could you\nexplain a bit?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The idea, as I understand it, isn't that Communism is Pelagianism,\nrather that it's a kind of secular adaptation of certain ideas with a\nPelagian flavor. The key idea is that Pelagianism proposes that it is\npossible to attain perfection and/or the beatific vision without the\naid of supernatural grace (which Aquinas claims was the Devil's actual\nrebellion--not to become God, because the Devil would know that was\nimpossible, but to atain perfection sans divine grace). Communism\noffers a similar, although deterministic, vision of a purely human\n(and now purely materialistic) method of achieving utopia, of\n\"immanentizing the eschaton.\" Communism, of course, is not a personal\nachievement of a state of perfection.\n\n\nI'll give a better idea of what I mean about Original Sin/Vodalus'\nspace program later (I don't have New Sun with me at the moment).\nCharting the origins/breakouts of what I say Wolfe means as\n\"heresies\"--I'll try to this for the ones I can, although I'm offering\nit more as a gut instinct of how things are portrayed thn something I\nthink is obvious from the text.\n\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-05-22T20:57:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Adam Stephanides " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I understand it, the orthodox, anti-Pelagian position does not deny\nthe existence of free will, as Nutria points out; nor does it deny\nthat\nthe unsaved can perform virtuous acts (although these acts will always\nbe tainted by sin); nor does it deny that good works can play a role\nin\nsalvation (that was, after all, one of the major issues of the\nReformation). Rather, it denies that humans can free themselves from\nsin, or attain salvation, by their own unaided efforts. And\nSeverian's\ncareer illustrates this throughout. He never frees himself from sin,\niirc (though it's been a while since I last read the books). He\ndoesn't\nbecome the Conciliator, or bring the New Sun, through his own unaided\nefforts. And given that he is manipulated throughout his life by\ntime-travellers who know his destiny, it is questionable how much free\nwill he actually has (though I've never really understood this aspect\nof\nthe books).\n\nIt has always seemed to me that the contrast between Loyal to the\nGroup\nof Seventeen's story and Folia's story exemplifies the contrast\nbetween\nthe Pelagian and orthodox views of salvation. The protagonist of\nLoyal\nto the Group of Seventeen's story succeeds through his own\npersistence;\nthe protagonist of Folia's story \"gains\" the princess through the\nprincess's free gift, though he has to be able to recognize this gift." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam,\n\nA good argument, but it doesn't take into account that it is Vodalus who\nis the Pelagian, not Sev, who doesn't even understand the pass-phrase.\nSev never seems to be interested in the contrast in \"views of\nsalvation,\" or political stances betwen the autarchy and Vodalus's army.\nHe's a man of action, not theory. Vodalus is also a man of action, but\nWolfe throws this curious quasi-religious point in to puzzle us all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Alex David Groce \nAlga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it difficult to understand how such a doctrinaire belief as\nCommunism could endorse a radical embracement of Free Will. Could you\nexplain a bit?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The idea, as I understand it, isn't that Communism is Pelagianism,\nrather that it's a kind of secular adaptation of certain ideas with a\nPelagian flavor. The key idea is that Pelagianism proposes that it is\npossible to attain perfection and/or the beatific vision without the\naid of supernatural grace (which Aquinas claims was the Devil's actual\nrebellion--not to become God, because the Devil would know that was\nimpossible, but to atain perfection sans divine grace). Communism\noffers a similar, although deterministic, vision of a purely human\n(and now purely materialistic) method of achieving utopia, of\n\"immanentizing the eschaton.\" Communism, of course, is not a personal\nachievement of a state of perfection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This doesn't seem to me to elucidate. Not your fault. I think we need to\nthink about where Vodalus stands with regard to Ascianism--is he really\na heartfelt ally, or just taking advantage of the fire-power? (Just the\nway we seem to be doing, economically, toward China recently.) I\nincline toward the latter. I can't believe Vodalus would buy the Ascian\nsocial line.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-05-23T09:41:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "akt at attglobal.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Adam Stephanides " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As I understand it, the orthodox, anti-Pelagian position does not deny\nthe existence of free will, as Nutria points out; nor does it deny\nthat\nthe unsaved can perform virtuous acts (although these acts will always\nbe tainted by sin); nor does it deny that good works can play a role\nin\nsalvation (that was, after all, one of the major issues of the\nReformation). Rather, it denies that humans can free themselves from\nsin, or attain salvation, by their own unaided efforts. And\nSeverian's\ncareer illustrates this throughout. He never frees himself from sin,\niirc (though it's been a while since I last read the books). He\ndoesn't\nbecome the Conciliator, or bring the New Sun, through his own unaided\nefforts. And given that he is manipulated throughout his life by\ntime-travellers who know his destiny, it is questionable how much free\nwill he actually has (though I've never really understood this aspect\nof\nthe books)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam,\n\nA good argument, but it doesn't take into account that it is Vodalus who\nis the Pelagian, not Sev, who doesn't even understand the pass-phrase." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm confused. I don't see how my argument presupposed that Sev was the\nPelagian. In fact, although I didn't say so explicitly, I was arguing\nagainst Carlton Greene's suggestion that Sev was Pelagian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Vodalus is also a man of action, but\nWolfe throws this curious quasi-religious point in to puzzle us all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the Pelagian-orthodox contrast is just \"thrown in.\" I\nthink that the contrast between Urth returning to the stars through its\nown efforts (as Vodalus advocates), and Urth's relying on the help and\nguidance of the Hierodules--and, by analogy, between two different\ntheories of salvation--is key to the book. That's one way in which URTH\nOF THE NEW SUN does \"complete\" the tetralogy, no matter how problematic\nit is in other respects. It makes it clear that, contrary to what\nSeverian believes at the end of BotNS, Urth's redemption does not depend\nprimarily upon Severian's \"good works\" as Autarch (I would argue for\nthis regardless of how the \"battle royal\" scene is interpreted).\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-05-24T17:06:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alga said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This doesn't seem to me to elucidate. Not your fault. I think we need to\nthink about where Vodalus stands with regard to Ascianism--is he really\na heartfelt ally, or just taking advantage of the fire-power? (Just the\nway we seem to be doing, economically, toward China recently.) I\nincline toward the latter. I can't believe Vodalus would buy the Ascian\nsocial line." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It certainly seems that Vodalus is at least as opportunistic as\nanything else--he seems more Nietzschean aristocrat than Ascian\nideologue. On the other hand, he does reject the various hieros,\nwhich (the way I'm thinking of it) is somewhat analogous to the\nrejection of the need for Divine Grace. Maybe, trying to stick to\nthis framework (however useful that may be) Vodalus is the other side\nof the pseudo-Pelagian coin--the Ascians seek a perfected society\nwithout the need of the Increate and Vodalus is seeking glory and\nindividual perfection (and a new human empire, it appears) via the\nsame means. Of course, Vodalus and the Ascians aren't really so much\neschewing supra-human means as choosing supra-human sides--Abaia and\nErebus are clearly the masks behind the human faces, and the uniting\nfactor in the (otherwise) odd alliance of convenience.\n\nAs to the earlier comment about Vodalu's hope to return to space as\nanalogous to the rejection of Original Sin, although I still don't\nhave BOTNS on hand, all I was thinking was that Wolfe's vague\nreferences to our crimes in our galaxy-spanning days and the plan to\nkeep us from returning to the stars until we are redeemed seems to\nhave clear connections to the idea of being turned out of the garden\nafter the Fall. After all, we're clearly in Milton territory here,\njustifying the ways of God to Man.\n\n\n\n\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-05-25T08:36:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pelagianism", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 24 May 2000, Alex David Groce wrote:\nAs to the earlier comment about Vodalu's hope to return to space as\nanalogous to the rejection of Original Sin, although I still don't\nhave BOTNS on hand, all I was thinking was that Wolfe's vague\nreferences to our crimes in our galaxy-spanning days and the plan to\nkeep us from returning to the stars until we are redeemed seems to\nhave clear connections to the idea of being turned out of the garden\nafter the Fall. After all, we're clearly in Milton territory here,\njustifying the ways of God to Man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reminds me of some of C.S. Lewis's poems and _Out of the Silent\nPlanet_ where he expresses horror at the thought of humanity colonizing\nthe universe because it would bring the taint of sin to previously\nuntainted worlds. A sentiment that seems related to the moment in the\nLord of the Rings where, deep in the polluted lands of Mordor, Sam and\nFrodo catch a glimpse one night of the stars and take comfort that there\nare innumerable worlds that Sauron can never touch.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }