Subject: (urth) Pelagianism

From: Alice Turner <pei047 at attglobal.net>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 10:20:50 +0000

We've never discussed this, have we?

In CLAW, just before they dine on baked Thecla,Vodalus gives a
flint-like object to Sev to give to his "agent" at the House Absolute
(the autarch). The agent will identify himself with the phrase, "The
pelagic argosy sights land." Later, if he should give Sev a further
message, the recipient will use the phrase, "I am from the quercine
penetralia," i.e. the heart of the oak--which is truer than Vodalus
knows.

Pelagic, as a simple adjective, means oceanic, deep-sea. But there is a
Christian heresy named after Pelagius, a strong rival to Augustine of
Hippo (who nailed down a great deal of Christian doctrine, including
some of the most intractable). The position of Pelagius was that the
doctrine of Grace, as taught by Augustine, was in opposition to the
doctrine of Free Will, and ultimately was productive of moral laxity.
Pelagius was condemned several times (usually by a narrow margin), but
in practice, Western Christianity has wavered between his side and
Augustine's ever since.

The basic points were a rejection of Original Sin (Adam was merely a bad
example); thus there is no need for salvation through Christ as it can
be achieved by one's own efforts (Christ was merely a good example).
Man, not God, is responsible for man's depravity (and Pelagius found
plenty of depravity in Rome), and it is entirely possible for a man,
even before Christ, to be sinless--we can choose our path. Infant
baptism, one of Augustine's most controversial stands (unbaptized babies
were damned, which, to some of us, seems like an extraordinarily
perverse superstition) was rejected. You can check all this out at
length in the online Catholic Encyclopedia.

Taking the position that Wolfe does not use words, especially unusual
words with a religious slant, lightly or accidentally, how does this
pertain to the Vodalus position?

-alga

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 11:50:59 +0000

It would make considerable sense as an intentional linkage.  Vodalus,
for one thing, is an ally of the Ascians.  Ascia is, among other
things, Wolfe's version of a Communist state.  The idea that Communism
is a kind of radical Christian heresy, sometimes considered an
extension of a particularly extreme Pelagianism, is well-known.  In
this case, also, the rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin can
probably be fruitfully compared to Vodalus' goals of returning to the
stars and empire--never mind those interfering "holy slave"
busybodies, reclaiming man's lost glory.

Chesterton's HERETICS probably wasn't the first place where the
identification (not a main point of the book) of modern non-Christian
ideologies with old and still-kicking Christian heresies was made, but
I'll bet Wolfe's read it, along with a number of other writers who've
taken this approach (after all, Wolfe says his political views were
once well-described by the phrase "Buckley conservative", and Buckley
can't mention Communism without saying "immanentize the eschaton" at
least twice).  More generally, beyond Pelagianism, Wolfe certainly (in
New Sun) allies all his players with faiths, true or false--and marks
the false ones as such by indicating that their "line to the Increate"
is broken.  Certainly Baldanders is not the (I think Wolfe would say
mythical) rational scientist, but a follower of a rigorous doctrine
(his action with the Claw, for instance).  All of these doctrines,
though, even in Long Sun, where they more clearly are based in part on
other religions, and even the "witch-doctors" of the jungle, are, in
Wolfe's world, derived from and broken off in reaction against the
Increate/Outsider, and thus heresies rather than true, free-standing
systems.

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:32
--
Alex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)
Ph.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department
8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce

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From: Greene, Carlton <cgreene2 at hunton.com>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 12:36:43 +0000

Perhaps Severian is Pelagic in the sense that mankind's savoir achieves
salvation for himself and Urth by an act of free will -- renouncing the life
of cruelty and decadence represented by his guild and choosing mercy.  This
is apparent in the test of Yesod as well, which turns not on faith in the
Increate, but one man's personal spiritual accomplishments during his
lifetime.

Given the other meaning of Pelagic, perhaps it is no surprise that some of
the moments when Sev fights internal moral battles over what kind of person
he will be take place in deep water (I am referring in particular to his
colloquies with the undines in books 1 and 4 (I think)).  

Carlton

works
ranjit at best.com
whorl at lists.best.com

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From: akt <akt at attglobal.net>
Date: Fri, 19 May 2000 20:04:18 +0000

I'm hoping this is the beginning of an interesting discussion, not
making positional points of my own.

Alex,

The idea that Communism
> extension of a particularly extreme Pelagianism, is well-known.

I find it difficult to understand how such a doctrinaire belief as
Communism could endorse a radical embracement of Free Will. Could you
explain a bit?

 In this case, also, the rejection of the doctrine of Original Sin can
> busybodies, reclaiming man's lost glory.

I don't get your reasoning here, either, though it seems interesting.

> Increate/Outsider, and thus heresies rather than true, free-standing

If this is true in a parallel way--I don't think it is--I'd like to see
a mantis-like chart equating one to another. I don't think it can be
done, but I'd truly applaud the person who proves me wrong.

Carlton,

The Pelagic movement does not pertain to Sev but to Vodalus. It is
Vodalus who gives the pass-phrase, and Vodalus to whom we must look for
some meaning to the "heresy," if that is what it is.

-alga

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From: Jim Jordan <jbjordan at gnt.net>
Date: Sat, 20 May 2000 11:19:30 +0000

is an interlocked tension in the Commonwealth between the absolute power of
the autarch and the anarchy advocated by Vodalus. Translate that into
theological terms, and you have determinism on the one hand, and
Pelagianism on the other. Between, or above, them is the Christian doctrine
of predestination, which affirms both divine superintendence and human
freedom together as a mystery (which is the better way of understanding the
Augustinian position, even if there are infelicities in his own expression
thereof -- Aug was not saying that everything is fixed and men are just
robots). If I were going to run with this, I'd investigate whether
Severian, as agent of the Increate, is providing an example of the
Christian (Thomist, Wolfean) doctrine.

Nutria

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 09:17:01 +0000

As I understand it, the orthodox, anti-Pelagian position does not deny
the existence of free will, as Nutria points out; nor does it deny that
the unsaved can perform virtuous acts (although these acts will always
be tainted by sin); nor does it deny that good works can play a role in
salvation (that was, after all, one of the major issues of the
Reformation).  Rather, it denies that humans can free themselves from
sin, or attain salvation, by their own unaided efforts.  And Severian's
career illustrates this throughout.  He never frees himself from sin,
iirc (though it's been a while since I last read the books).  He doesn't
become the Conciliator, or bring the New Sun, through his own unaided
efforts.  And given that he is manipulated throughout his life by
time-travellers who know his destiny, it is questionable how much free
will he actually has (though I've never really understood this aspect of
the books).

It has always seemed to me that the contrast between Loyal to the Group
of Seventeen's story and Folia's story exemplifies the contrast between
the Pelagian and orthodox views of salvation.  The protagonist of Loyal
to the Group of Seventeen's story succeeds through his own persistence;
the protagonist of Folia's story "gains" the princess through the
princess's free gift, though he has to be able to recognize this gift.

(As for the "trial" and "battle royal" on Yesod, I'm not sure how they
fit in to this, because I find that whole aspect of the Hierogrammates'
plan very obscure, as I've said before.)

--Adam

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Sun, 21 May 2000 13:30:00 +0000

>Communism could endorse a radical embracement of Free Will. Could you

The idea, as I understand it, isn't that Communism is Pelagianism,
rather that it's a kind of secular adaptation of certain ideas with a
Pelagian flavor.  The key idea is that Pelagianism proposes that it is
possible to attain perfection and/or the beatific vision without the
aid of supernatural grace (which Aquinas claims was the Devil's actual
rebellion--not to become God, because the Devil would know that was
impossible, but to atain perfection sans divine grace).  Communism
offers a similar, although deterministic, vision of a purely human
(and now purely materialistic) method of achieving utopia, of
"immanentizing the eschaton."  Communism, of course, is not a personal
achievement of a state of perfection.

I'll give a better idea of what I mean about Original Sin/Vodalus'
space program later (I don't have New Sun with me at the moment).
Charting the origins/breakouts of what I say Wolfe means as
"heresies"--I'll try to this for the ones I can, although I'm offering
it more as a gut instinct of how things are portrayed thn something I
think is obvious from the text.

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From: akt <akt at attglobal.net>
Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 20:57:30 +0000

> From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>

> princess's free gift, though he has to be able to recognize this gift.

Adam,

A good argument, but it doesn't take into account that it is Vodalus who
is the Pelagian, not Sev, who doesn't even understand the pass-phrase.
Sev never seems to be interested in the contrast in "views of
salvation," or political stances betwen the autarchy and Vodalus's army.
He's a man of action, not theory. Vodalus is also a man of action, but
Wolfe throws this curious quasi-religious point in to puzzle us all.

> From: Alex David Groce <Alex_Groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
> Alga wrote:
>

This doesn't seem to me to elucidate. Not your fault. I think we need to
think about where Vodalus stands with regard to Ascianism--is he really
a heartfelt ally, or just taking advantage of the fire-power? (Just the
way we seem to be doing, economically,  toward China recently.) I
incline toward the latter. I can't believe Vodalus would buy the Ascian
social line.

-alga

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:41:11 +0000

> is the Pelagian, not Sev, who doesn't even understand the pass-phrase.

I'm confused.  I don't see how my argument presupposed that Sev was the
Pelagian.  In fact, although I didn't say so explicitly, I was arguing
against Carlton Greene's suggestion that Sev was Pelagian.

> Vodalus is also a man of action, but

I don't think the Pelagian-orthodox contrast is just "thrown in."  I
think that the contrast between Urth returning to the stars through its
own efforts (as Vodalus advocates), and Urth's relying on the help and
guidance of the Hierodules--and, by analogy, between two different
theories of salvation--is key to the book.  That's one way in which URTH
OF THE NEW SUN does "complete" the tetralogy, no matter how problematic
it is in other respects.  It makes it clear that, contrary to what
Severian believes at the end of BotNS, Urth's redemption does not depend
primarily upon Severian's "good works" as Autarch (I would argue for
this regardless of how the "battle royal" scene is interpreted).

--Adam

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From: Alex David Groce <alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 May 2000 17:06:10 +0000

>incline toward the latter. I can't believe Vodalus would buy the Ascian

It certainly seems that Vodalus is at least as opportunistic as
anything else--he seems more Nietzschean aristocrat than Ascian
ideologue.  On the other hand, he does reject the various hieros,
which (the way I'm thinking of it) is somewhat analogous to the
rejection of the need for Divine Grace.  Maybe, trying to stick to
this framework (however useful that may be) Vodalus is the other side
of the pseudo-Pelagian coin--the Ascians seek a perfected society
without the need of the Increate and Vodalus is seeking glory and
individual perfection (and a new human empire, it appears) via the
same means.  Of course, Vodalus and the Ascians aren't really so much
eschewing supra-human means as choosing supra-human sides--Abaia and
Erebus are clearly the masks behind the human faces, and the uniting
factor in the (otherwise) odd alliance of convenience.

As to the earlier comment about Vodalu's hope to return to space as
analogous to the rejection of Original Sin, although I still don't
have BOTNS on hand, all I was thinking was that Wolfe's vague
references to our crimes in our galaxy-spanning days and the plan to
keep us from returning to the stars until we are redeemed seems to
have clear connections to the idea of being turned out of the garden
after the Fall.  After all, we're clearly in Milton territory here,
justifying the ways of God to Man.

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Thu, 25 May 2000 08:36:32 +0000

> justifying the ways of God to Man.

This reminds me of some of C.S. Lewis's poems and _Out of the Silent
Planet_ where he expresses horror at the thought of humanity colonizing
the universe because it would bring the taint of sin to previously
untainted worlds.  A sentiment that seems related to the moment in the
Lord of the Rings where, deep in the polluted lands of Mordor, Sam and
Frodo catch a glimpse one night of the stars and take comfort that there
are innumerable worlds that Sauron can never touch.

-Rostrum