{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2272", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2272, "subject": "C.S. Lewis", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "2000-05-27T02:08:19+00:00", "last": "2000-05-29T05:01:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-05-27T02:08:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) C.S. Lewis", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vizcacha said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I refer again to C. S. Lewis's position, explicated somewhat in _Out\nof the\nSilent Planet_ et seq., that space travel (or possibly only space\ncolonization) and immortality are sins. This is a thread not far\nbelow the\nsurface in much of _New Sun_ and even in other works by Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Rostrum replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a fine point, but he didn't think space travel and immortality\nare\nthemselves sins, rather they are a bad idea because they would allow\nsin\nto grow beyond it's current bounds of time (a lifetime) and space\n(Earth)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would appreciate more on this. I've read these books (not for years,\ntrue) without conciously picking up these points. And does Wolfe really\necho them? Typhon, who lives for centuries, is bad. But the Green Man,\nSev himself, everyone on the starship are not immortal, but are\nlong-lived. Tzad is probably immortal (but also supernatural).\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Fusch", "address": "dfusch at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2000-05-27T07:49:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) C.S. Lewis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: akt at attglobal.net\n\nI would appreciate more on this. I've read these books (not for years,\ntrue) without conciously picking up these points. And does Wolfe really\necho them? Typhon, who lives for centuries, is bad. But the Green Man,\nSev himself, everyone on the starship are not immortal, but are\nlong-lived. Tzad is probably immortal (but also supernatural).\n\n-alga" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm interested in this, too. I have only a vague recollection of \"Out of the \nSilent Planet,\" but didn't that novel end with the antagonists being sent \nback to earth so that they would not pollute the peaceful inhabitants of an \nEdenic paradise with vain and self-destructive philosophies?\n\nIncidentally, I remember the same thread appearing in L'Engle's work--A \nWrinkle in Time--with the difference that the silent planet was there a \nshadowed planet. The similarity was that travelers from earth were viewed \nwith suspicion (at first) on the planet neighboring Camazotz, once the \ninhabitants learned of their origin.\n\nBut, not to meander--wouldn't the Green Man be an example of redeemed \nhumanity, or the Urth equivalent thereof? In the Green Man's time, Urth has \nalready been transformed into Ushas, there is a new sun, and the world is \nfilled with verdure and life.\n\nAs for the state of affairs on Urth, it seems to me that the Autarchs have \nclosed the roads, abandoned spaceflight, etc., not to prevent humanity from \nspreading like a plague and infecting the rest of the universe, but rather \nto lock society into an earthbound holding pattern, so that the Autuarchs \ncan maintain a status quo until the coming of the New Sun. The alternative, \nfrom the Autarchs' point of view, would be endless warring, the ceaseless \nrise and collapse of empires, turmoil without end; they have tried every \nsystem of government available throughout the millenia, but none of these \nhave worked. Vodalus' dreams of progress and glory are illusory; from this \nview, conquest of the stars would simply increase the scope of the turmoil \nthat is human history.\n\nTherefore, it is necessary to lock everything in place until the New Sun \ncomes to make all things new both spiritually and physically.\n\nFrom the old Autarch's death scene in Citadel:\n\n\"I stand...you will stand...for so much that is wrong.... Because all else \nis worse. Until the New Sun comes, we have but a choice of evils. All have \nbeen tried, and all have failed. Goods in common, the rule of the \npeople...everything. You wish for progress? The Ascians have it. They are \ndeafened by it, crazed by the death of Nature until they are ready to accept \nErebus and the rest as gods. We hold humankind stationary...in barbarism. \nThe Autarch protects the people from the exultants, and the \nexultants...shelter them from the Autarch. The religious comfort them. We \nhave closed the roads to paralyze the social order.... Until the New \nSun....\"\n\nThis paralysis allows the Autarchs to keep the society in stasis--and thus \nin peace and order--as they wait for the New Sun. The Autarchs would be \nfatalists, if it were not for their certainty of the coming of the New Sun \nand the rebirth/renewal of Urth.\n\nMeanwhile--I think--some of the Hierodules drop by periodically to help \nguide humanity and prepare everything for the New Sun. I think. I've never \nbeen entirely clear on the role of the Hierodules in their ministering to \nhumanity. But then, I don't know whether Severian was entirely clear on that \npoint, either.\n\nThe short version of all this is that immortality and the colonization of \nspace are sinful only in the sense that they are self-destructive. By \nspreading across the universe, homo sapiens does not harm others so much as \nharm itself, by increasing the political, economical, and social chaos of \nthe species. I'm not certain whether Wolfe addresses the issue of \nimmortality, but I suspect that if he did his ruling would be that \nimmortality is not sinful in of itself, but is inherently perilous and \ndetrimental because it extends one's sinful or chaotic condition. Death--as \nlong as the world and humanity as a whole is in a decaying state--is not \nnecessarily a bad thing; an eternity of decay would be worse. However, I \nhave no textual support at hand for this, so this remains mere speculation.\n\nWhat do you think?\n\nDaniel" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-05-27T11:42:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) C.S. Lewis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:49 AM 5/27/2000 PDT, you wrote:\nBut, not to meander--wouldn't the Green Man be an example of redeemed \nhumanity, or the Urth equivalent thereof? In the Green Man's time, Urth has \nalready been transformed into Ushas, there is a new sun, and the world is \nfilled with verdure and life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThat would seem to be so. Eden restored and transformed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the state of affairs on Urth, it seems to me that the Autarchs have \nclosed the roads, abandoned spaceflight, etc., not to prevent humanity from \nspreading like a plague and infecting the rest of the universe, but rather \nto lock society into an earthbound holding pattern, so that the Autuarchs \ncan maintain a status quo until the coming of the New Sun. The alternative, \nfrom the Autarchs' point of view, would be endless warring, the ceaseless \nrise and collapse of empires, turmoil without end; they have tried every \nsystem of government available throughout the millenia, but none of these \nhave worked. Vodalus' dreams of progress and glory are illusory; from this \nview, conquest of the stars would simply increase the scope of the turmoil \nthat is human history.\n\nTherefore, it is necessary to lock everything in place until the New Sun \ncomes to make all things new both spiritually and physically." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI was much surprised when I interviewed Wolfe to learn that Cordwainer\nSmith was not much of an influence on him. *Scanners Live in Vain* has the\nsame theme, and in both cases we are retelling the transition from the Old\nCovenant Under Law to the New Covenant Under Grace. The Law of Yahweh/Moses\nfreezes people to prevent their becoming worse, and the same is true of\nTaboos in all Archaic cultures. From a Christian standpoint, the Levitical\nlaws are the \"true\" form of such taboos. Then Jesus comes, the New Son/Sun\n(Malachi chapter 4) and such freezing is no longer necessary. In Smith, he\nis Adam Stone, both of whose names are significant. (In case anyone does\nnot catch it, God and the Messiah are repeatedly called the Rock in the\nBible, especially in the Psalter.)\n\t\"Freezing\" is just Wolfe's implied metaphor, because the alternative\neschatology that leads to Master Ash is the increase of this freezing until\nthe world is completely Ragnaroked. \n\tIt's interesting to compare/contrast \"Scanners\" and *Severian.* Smith\ntells the story from the standpoint of the Jewish Sanhedrin (the scanner\ncorps), who by the Law keep dead men \"alive\" in the \"great pain\" of cursed\nspace (where rat-dragons live and prey on men). Wolfe tells the story more\nfrom the standpoint of the pagan world, especially Rome, enabling Wolfe to\nbring in \"everything under the sun\" as he tells the story. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Meanwhile--I think--some of the Hierodules drop by periodically to help \nguide humanity and prepare everything for the New Sun. I think. I've never \nbeen entirely clear on the role of the Hierodules in their ministering to \nhumanity. But then, I don't know whether Severian was entirely clear on that \npoint, either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, they are kind of like angels in the Old Testament, and (from Wolfe's\nstandpoint) the kindly angels who ministered in pagan cultures before the\ncoming of Christianity. \n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-05-27T22:35:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) C.S. Lewis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This poem gives a pretty clear picture of Lewis's thoughts on the subject,\nalthough he didn't publish it in his lifetime, so he may have had\nreservations about the ideas (or about the way he expresses them here).\n\nPRELUDE TO SPACE\nAn Epithalamium\n\n\tSo Man, grown vigorous now,\n\tHolds himelf ripe to breed,\n\tDaily devises how\n\tTo ejaculate his seed\n\tAnd boldy fertilize\nThe black womb of the unconsenting skies.\n\n\tSome now alive expect\n\t(I am told) to see the large,\n\tSteel member grow erect,\n\tTurgid with the fierce charge\n\tOf our whole planet's skill,\nCourage, wealth, knowledge, concentrated will;\n\n\tStraining with lust to stamp\n\tOur likeness on the abyss--\n\tBombs, gallows, Belsen camp,\n\tPox, polio, Thais' kiss\n\tOr Judas', Moloch's fires\nAnd Torquemada's (sons resemble sires).\n\n\tShall we, when the grim shape\n\tRoars upward, dance and sing?\n\tYes: if we honor rape,\n\tIf we take pride to fling\n\tSo bountifully on space\nThe sperm of our long woes, our large disgrace.\n\n(From _Poems_, ed. Walter Hooper, p. 56.)\n\nI can't remember where Lewis talks about our limited lifespan as a mercy,\nlest a bad man continue to get worse and worse without limit. Maybe in\n_The Abolition of Man_ or _The Problem of Pain_.\n\nAn amusing aside, there's another poem by Lewis, \"An Expostulation Against\nToo Many Writers of Science Fiction,\" where he complains of people writing\nscience fiction adventure stories that could just as easily take place\nanywhere on Earth:\n\n Why should I leave this green-floored cell,\n Roofed with blue air, in which we dwell,\n Unless, outside its guarded gates,\n Long, long desired, the Unearthly waits,\n Strangeness that moves us more than fear,\n Beauty that stabs with tingling spear [...]\n\n(Ibid, p. 58.)\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-05-28T17:03:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) C.S. Lewis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can see why Lewis never published \"Prelude to Space.\" It's awful, just\nawful! The fragment of the second one is much better and the title is\nfunny: \"An Expostulation Against Too Many Writers of Science Fiction.\"\nHmmm. I hadn't known that he identified himself at all as a SF writer.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-05-28T22:31:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) C.S. Lewis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 28 May 2000 akt at attglobal.net wrote:\nI can see why Lewis never published \"Prelude to Space.\" It's awful, just\nawful! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I don't know that Walter Hooper is doing Lewis any favors publishing\nsome of this stuff, but it does give a pretty clear picture of his\nthoughts on the matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The fragment of the second one is much better and the title is\nfunny: \"An Expostulation Against Too Many Writers of Science Fiction.\"\nHmmm. I hadn't known that he identified himself at all as a SF writer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I think is funny is that he could complain about too many SF writers\nin 1959. What would he think of shelves full of Star Trek tie-ins?\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Fusch", "address": "dfusch at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2000-05-29T05:01:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) C.S. Lewis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Michael Straight \n\nYeah, I don't know that Walter Hooper is doing Lewis any favors publishing\nsome of this stuff, but it does give a pretty clear picture of his\nthoughts on the matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather like cleaning out a dozen old file cabinets. This happens to most \ngreat writers, I think, sooner or later!" } ] } ] }