{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2277", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2277, "subject": "Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head?", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2000-06-03T11:23:25+00:00", "last": "2000-06-12T08:32:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-06-03T11:23:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Had a short, unprepared interview with JC. Have not yet played the tape\nback, but at one point I asked questions from the group and scribbled\nnotes, so this is from my notes. William, I forgot to ask about Edward\nGorey. But my guess is that you are right--will ask next time. I will\nalso amplify these answers, if need be, when I listen to the tape.\n\nAdam:\n\n1) Is the \"other country\" to which the Drinkwaters have gone in any\nsense death? Yes. But it is not an ending; it is the start of something\nnew.\n\n2)Does JC see this final destiny as positive, negative or ambiguous?\nAmbiguous. You go farther in, and there is no answer to how far you can\ngo. The 52 humans have become the 52 fairies who control them; the\nfairies have gone farther in.\n\n(I did not ask the children's book question as I did not think he would\nhave a top-of-the-head answer; we've covered that area pretty\nthoroughly. But I will get to it when I'm better prepared.)\n\n3) What is the purpose of the Eigenblick subplot in LB? An exploration\nof power. Power has no power; love has power. Also wanted to play with a\nwoman acting in ways that men do in the usual thiller plots. Also\n(sheepishly) admitted that much of it came from a draft he had made for\nanother book entirely. (This does not surprise me at all!!)\n\n4) Why in both TD and LB do the Tarot decks have 52 cards aside from the\ntrumps, unlike historical decks? Older deck have 52 cards including\ntrumps, in 4 suits. Tarot cards are the extra cards added to that pack.\n(I can't read my notes here, but iirc he found the device useful enough\nto use twice and pointed out that the packs were actually quite\ndifferent.)\n\n5) In GWoT, why is the introductory chapter about Casper given such\nprominence? Two answers: 1) Because he's responsible for all that\noccured; 2) it was written long before the rest and was shoehorned in.\n\n6) In GWoT why does old Dennis at the end think that meeting oneself is\nimpossible, and that the Otherhood claimed otherwise to protect itself?\nIt's not impossible, but forbidden. Leads to foreknowledge which might\nbe the end of hope. (I think that's what my note says.)\n\n7) In ES, was the Long League of Women originally the League of Women\nVoters? Yes, and other prominent women's clubs or societies.\n\n8) Soap operas? Turns out it's not true; he has not written soap operas.\n\nHere are some questions from mantis; I have already sent them to him,\nbut will edit my pasted-in e-mail since some of them refer mainly\nto -Daemonomania-, which he and I have read but most of you haven't:\n\n1) No on David Bowie. No gleam of connection. I get the impression that\nJC doesn't relate to music, even the music \"of his generation,\" all that\nviscerally.\n\n2) Philip K. Dick. Read -Eye in the Sky- in highschool and was much\nimpressed: a world that is not your own, not real, but inescapable.\n\n3) The Fourth Tower of Inverness. Never heard of it.\n\n4) -The Crying of Lot 49- Oh yes, big influence. One of the books he'd\n\"most like to have written.\" Though Pierce and Mucho do not come\ndirectly from that book, he is aware of the name coincidence since an\nearly review pointed it out. Stamp collections.\n\n5) -The Alexandria Quartet- No influence, but loved it.\n\n6) -The Magus- No influence, but hated it. (He did explain a little, but\nthat will have to wait till I listen to the tape.)\n\n7) Le Guin. Big influence, especially the early books. Prob read LHoD\nfirst, then went back to the others (Rocannon's World, City of\nIllusions, Planet of Exile). These, with parts of Disch's -334-, are\nprobably the biggest SF influences on his work. Aware of parallel\nbetween TD and CoI (alien traveler with strange eyes, damaged mind, an\nunknown purpose) but says the idea came to him before he read it. Says\nun-self-consciously that his is a much better-constructed book, that\nhers is something of a mess. Says he finds her later work dry, somewhat\npriggish and hard going.\n\nMoving on, ideas of humans as next to God, other critters as less than\nhuman: You're on the right track. Conscious gnosticism here (can't\nquite decipher my writing). Humans remain part of God, while fairies,\nangels,\ndemons, gods have been forgotten (by us, I think, not God) (when I\nlisten to the tape, I'll send a less garbled answer to this one).\n\nYou: \"People who mimic the other critters are debasing themselves and\nmoving away from God and toward the less-than-human.\" Him: \"Right, but\nnot in an orthodox way, it is gnostic.\"\n\nNext point about the LB family devolving (Nutria's horror). He says [a\nspoiler snip] his thoughts were \"more handmade\" in LB; the family is\nmoving to\na new condition which is not necessarily either higher or lower. He says\nhe is not a \"moral writer,\" that he can explore the dilemmas of\ncharacters who are creations in a book, a Tale. This is pretty explicit\nin LB, but also true of the AE series.\n\nHe says you may be thinking a little too hard. It is important to\nremember that this is a Tale and they are in it. In the series,\ncharacters realize this more as the books move along.\n\nHe was a bit amused at your reaction to the \"dreamboy,\" [L&S] and\nexplained\nthat what Pierce has done is to wish for love, and then when Cupid/Eros\nshows up he makes the fumbling human mistake of actually trying to make\nlove to the ideal rather than asking it to grant his wish. Cupid permits\nthis out of somewhat malicious amusement; it is in two ways a perversion\nof Pierce's natural yearning.\n\n[rest snipped]\n\nRatty, we talked quite a bit about religion. As I suspected, he has\ncompletely fallen away from his RC upbringing, to the point of some\nhostility. His wife is Jewish, and has made some attempt to impress\n\"heritage\" on their daughters, but he can't bring himself even to do\nthat, though (like me, btw) he believes that knowledge of the Bible,\nlike that of Greek mythology, is important to a humanistic education. He\nhas become extremely interested in gnosticim, however (for those who\nwant to follow him, you can get everything you need out of Hans\nJonas's -The Gnostic Religion-, one of the older and simpler texts).\nHarold Bloom is something of a mentor to him, as he is to me. I don't\nknow whether you have read, or plan to read, the AEgypt series, but this\ninterest is somewhat spelled out in it. In fact, knowing this makes the\nseries easier to read.\n\nSo I hope the above is of some interest to at least part of the list.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-06-08T00:29:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Had a short, unprepared interview with JC. Have not yet played the tape\nback, but at one point I asked questions from the group and scribbled\nnotes, so this is from my notes. William, I forgot to ask about Edward\nGorey. But my guess is that you are right--will ask next time. I will\nalso amplify these answers, if need be, when I listen to the tape." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have finally finished re-reading LB, much more slowly and carefully \nthan the last time(s) I read it. I even took notes, but I can't say I \nfeel like I have achieved a much greater insight into the book than \nbefore.\n\nThere is another likely reference to Edward Gorey's _The Unstrung \nHarp_ in Book 6, Ch. 1, section \"Carrying a Torch\":\n\n------------------\n[...] he was not any longer someone to whom things happened.\n------------------\n\n(This is Auberon, thinking of himself.)\n\nCompare this to:\n\n------------------\nThough he is a person to whom things do not happen, perhaps they may \nwhen he is on the other side.\n------------------\n\nat the end of Gorey's book.\n\n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I hope the above is of some interest to at least part of the list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was greatly interested in your list of questions and answers and \nthank you for posting it. I have a few more questions I would like \nanswers to. I will give one trivial and one perhaps not so trivial \nbelow. I have one more that I still need to work on, but I will send \nit to you later.\n\n1. When Smoky comes to Edgewood for the first time, to marry Daily \nAlice, he meets her great-aunt, Nora Cloud, and her mother, Mrs. \nDrinkwater. There is an exchange between the two women. (This is in \nBook 1, Ch. 2, section \"Lead Astray\" on p. 31 of the Quality \nPaperback Book Club edition, which includes _Beasts_ and _Engine \nSummer_.)\n\n------------------\n\"Cloud,\" said Mrs. Drinkwater darkly, scratching her ankle above a \nslip-on sneaker frayed about the big toe, \"Cloud, I was lead astray.\"\n------------------\n\nMrs. Drinkwater had asked Nora Cloud for advice about berrying and \nhad collected a full bucket of berries, but says that she had been \nlead astray. This is never explained further that I could see.\n\nThis section contains a great deal of foreshadowing, but this \nparticular part of it seems to lead nowhere, although it seems quite \nsignificant at the time it occurs.\n\nI would like to know if it was intended to be significant and, if so, of what?\n\n2. In Book 6, Ch. 2, section \"What a Surprise\", p. 533 Sophie's long \nlost daughter Lilac has come back and is trying to tell her mother \nhow she got back to Edgewood, describing her route. Lilac mentions \npassing the Summer House where Auberon the elder lived in his last \ndays.\n \n------------------\n\"Auberon,\" Sophie said.\n\"No,\" Lilac said. \"Not _Au_beron.\"\n------------------\n\n(The \"Au\" are in italics, but not the rest of the name.)\n\nWhat does Lilac mean here, that the correct version of the name is Oberon?\n\nIf you want to (and can) pose these question to Crowley, wonderful. \nIf not, I understand completely.\n\nWilliam (picky, picky, picky) Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-06-11T12:34:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A big, belated thank you to alga for posting this. Another thank you\nfor asking nearly all the questions I suggested, in what sounds like\nnearly my wording, which I hadn't expected. Of course, now I'm kicking\nmyself for questions I forgot to suggest. I'll mention some in my\ncomments below; possibly, alga, you can ask some of them in your\nfollow-up, if you're so inclined." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "akt at attglobal.net wrote:\n\nAdam:\n\n1) Is the \"other country\" to which the Drinkwaters have gone in any\nsense death? Yes. But it is not an ending; it is the start of something\nnew." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I had told alga, I felt (and feel) the ending was deliberately\nambiguous, and I didn't want to seem crass by asking too directly for\nclarification. Hence the weaselly wording. Now I wish I'd bluntly\nasked \"Are the Drinkwaters dead?\" While JC might have regarded this as\ncrass, he also might have given a more specific answer. As it is, I'm\ntantalized: the Drinkwaters are dead \"in some sense,\" but we don't know\nin what." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The 52 humans have become the 52 fairies who control them; the\nfairies have gone farther in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not conclusive, but from JC's wording here it does appear that the\nDrinkwaters are not fairies to start with, but become fairies only after\nthey've crossed over. That's a question I wish I'd thought to suggest.\n\nAnd I also should have suggested asking \"Is it cyclical? Will another\ngroup of humans eventually replace the Drinkwaters as fairies?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[Referring to the Eigenblick subplot]: Also\n(sheepishly) admitted that much of it came from a draft he had made for\nanother book entirely. (This does not surprise me at all!!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It surprises me, not because I don't find aspects of the Eigenblick\nsubplot intrusive (though I'm not bothered by it as much as alga), but\nbecause it goes against my mental picture of Crowley as a meticulous\ncraftsman concerned that every word be just right. JC makes a similar\nadmission concerning GWoT later. A general question concerning his\ncomposition methods might be interesting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) Why in both TD and LB do the Tarot decks have 52 cards aside from the\ntrumps, unlike historical decks? Older deck have 52 cards including\ntrumps, in 4 suits. Tarot cards are the extra cards added to that pack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, so Crowley didn't deliberately change the number of \"suit cards\"\nto 52, as I had thought. There's a more general lesson here, one that\napplies to Wolfe too. I'm no expert on the history of cards, playing or\nTarot, but the books I have consulted give a history that differs from\nCrowley's. We shouldn't assume that the information we find in\nreference books--even standard ones--was necessarily what the author had\nin mind when he or she was writing.\n\nThis leads to another question I wish I'd suggested. In GWoT, the Denis\nwho narrates the final chapters (and, as it turns out, the entire work)\nmentions having heard from his father that a dirigible had crashed. As\nmantis has pointed out, the date given for this crash in GWoT is not the\ndate it crashed in reality (at least according to the reference work he\nconsulted). Did JC deliberately change the date to indicate that the\nworld at the end of the story is not quite the Original Situation,\ndespite appearances, as mantis argued? Or did JC, or mantis's\nreference, simply get the date wrong?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6) In GWoT why does old Dennis at the end think that meeting oneself is\nimpossible, and that the Otherhood claimed otherwise to protect itself?\nIt's not impossible, but forbidden. Leads to foreknowledge which might\nbe the end of hope. (I think that's what my note says.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I wish I'd suggested asking \"What happened on Denis's mission in\nRhodesia? Did he in fact meet his older self who warned him against\ncreating the Otherhood, and confabulate the story of the lion later?\" \nThat's what I think happened, but not everyone agrees. \n\nJC didn't exactly answer my question here, but I don't want to beat a\ndead horse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) No on David Bowie. No gleam of connection. I get the impression that\nJC doesn't relate to music, even the music \"of his generation,\" all that\nviscerally." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that I think about it, there is very little music in LB or Aegypt\nfor works with such a countercultural feel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) Philip K. Dick. Read -Eye in the Sky- in highschool and was much\nimpressed: a world that is not your own, not real, but inescapable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis, could you elaborate on why you asked this? The only connection\nI can see offhand is that Smoky is sucked intothe Drinkwaters' reality;\nbut in LB the Drinkwaters' reality is objectively real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) The Fourth Tower of Inverness. Never heard of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me neither. Should I have?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4) -The Crying of Lot 49- Oh yes, big influence. One of the books he'd\n\"most like to have written.\" Though Pierce and Mucho do not come\ndirectly from that book, he is aware of the name coincidence since an\nearly review pointed it out. Stamp collections." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, mantis, please elaborate. This sounds fascinating. I just\nfinished TCoL49, and must confess I don't see much connection between it\nand Aegypt, except for a general sense of epistemological suspension\nbetween two realms of being (though it seems the \"conflict of worlds\" in\nthe series is going to be definitely resolved in favor of magic). I see\na bit more of a similarity with LB: in a sense, the fairies and their\nallies, like Tristero, are a subversive conspiracy originating in Europe\ncenturies ago and imported to America. And again there's that\nepistemological suspension, although in LB not shared by the reader,\njust by some of the Smoky and some of the other males." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He was a bit amused at your reaction to the \"dreamboy,\" [L&S] and\nexplained\nthat what Pierce has done is to wish for love, and then when Cupid/Eros\nshows up he makes the fumbling human mistake of actually trying to make\nlove to the ideal rather than asking it to grant his wish. Cupid permits\nthis out of somewhat malicious amusement; it is in two ways a perversion\nof Pierce's natural yearning.\n[rest snipped]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like more of an explanation of this, especially since I've seen it\nsuggested that Crowley's works display a certain animus against\nhomosexuality. It might be interesting asking JC about this, of course\nin a way that doesn't put him on the spot.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-06-12T08:32:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Mr. Crowley, what went on in your head?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:34 PM 6/11/2000 -0700, you wrote:\nA big, belated thank you to alga for posting this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ditto from Nutria. Settles most things I was interested in.\n\nNutricious" } ] } ] }