{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2291", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2291, "subject": "The Barnables", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2000-06-24T22:40:05+00:00", "last": "2000-06-27T22:35:48+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-06-24T22:40:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The Barnables", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nThe full name on that page is \"Evan S. Barnable\": remind me, was his dad\nnamed Evan? Do we have evidence that his dad called him Smoky, and that\nSmoky is what the \"S\" stands for; or is Smoky just his hippie handle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't reread the whole book in a long time, but the only evidence\nbearing on these questions I can find offhand is in the section dealing\nwith Smoky's childhood: Smoky \"lived a lot in three different suburbs\nwith the same name in three different cities, and in each his relatives\ncalled him by a different name--his own, his father's, and Smoky--which\nlast so suited his evanescence that he kept it.\" (\"Anonymity,\" I, 1, p.\n6 in Bantam TPB.) Which seems to mean that Smoky's father was not\ncalled Evan (since his name was \"different\"), and suggests that Smoky\nwas first addressed as Smoky by his relatives and not by his father,\nthough Smoky may still be his middle name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(When I think of his family I just remember his five uncles" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, they were Smoky's half-brothers and sisters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and the way he\nand his dad would move from one uncle's house to the other . . . states\nbeginning with the letter I, that whole thing.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is more information on Smoky's family and childhood, but very\nlittle; which is kind of peculiar, come to think of it, given the amount\nwe're told about the Drinkwaters. This would seem to argue against the\nview that sees Smoky as the positive pole of the book and the\nDrinkwaters as the negative pole. The Drinkwaters are important in\nthemselves; Smoky is only important in relation to the Drinkwaters,\npoignant though his story is. (It's late at night, though, so I may be\nall wrong about this.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-06-26T22:24:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Barnables", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:40 PM -0700 6/24/00, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nMichael Andre-Driussi wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " The full name on that page is \"Evan S. Barnable\": remind me, was his dad\n named Evan? Do we have evidence that his dad called him Smoky, and that\n Smoky is what the \"S\" stands for; or is Smoky just his hippie handle?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I haven't reread the whole book in a long time, but the only evidence\nbearing on these questions I can find offhand is in the section dealing\nwith Smoky's childhood: Smoky \"lived a lot in three different suburbs\nwith the same name in three different cities, and in each his relatives\ncalled him by a different name--his own, his father's, and Smoky--which\nlast so suited his evanescence that he kept it.\" (\"Anonymity,\" I, 1, p.\n6 in Bantam TPB.) Which seems to mean that Smoky's father was not\ncalled Evan (since his name was \"different\"), and suggests that Smoky\nwas first addressed as Smoky by his relatives and not by his father,\nthough Smoky may still be his middle name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I re-read the whole book recently and rather carefully and so feel \nfairly confident when I state that this is the only part of the book \nwhere the origin of the nickname \"Smoky\" is discussed.\n\nHowever, I disagree somewhat with your interpretation of the passage \nyou quote above. I think that when Crowley says \"his own, his \nfather's, and Smoky\" he means that the first set of relatives in the \nfirst city called him Evan, the second set Barnable (his father's \nname in the sense of \"Mr. Barnable? That's my my father's name.\") and \nthe third set Smoky. It may be peculiar for the relatives of a young \nboy to call him by his last name, but it is not unheard of; it is \nmuch less likely (to me at least) that both Smoky and his father \nwould allow their relatives to call Smoky Douglas (for example) if \nthat was really his father's name. It would have caused a lot of \nunnecessary confusion, if nothing else.\n\nThis still makes it seems likely that Smoky's father was not named \nEvan, but not certain.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-06-27T09:53:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: The Barnables", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "William Ansley wrote:\n\nAt 10:40 PM -0700 6/24/00, Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Smoky \"lived a lot in three different suburbs\nwith the same name in three different cities, and in each his relatives\ncalled him by a different name--his own, his father's, and Smoky--which\nlast so suited his evanescence that he kept it.\" (\"Anonymity,\" I, 1, p.\n6 in Bantam TPB.) Which seems to mean that Smoky's father was not\ncalled Evan (since his name was \"different\"), and suggests that Smoky\nwas first addressed as Smoky by his relatives and not by his father,\nthough Smoky may still be his middle name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I re-read the whole book recently and rather carefully and so feel\nfairly confident when I state that this is the only part of the book\nwhere the origin of the nickname \"Smoky\" is discussed.\n\nHowever, I disagree somewhat with your interpretation of the passage\nyou quote above. I think that when Crowley says \"his own, his\nfather's, and Smoky\" he means that the first set of relatives in the\nfirst city called him Evan, the second set Barnable (his father's\nname in the sense of \"Mr. Barnable? That's my my father's name.\") and\nthe third set Smoky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought of this interpretation, but rejected it on the grounds that\nthe narrator's vocabulary is (or seems) straightforward, without\nparaphrases of this type. My feeling is that had Crowley meant\n\"surname,\" he would have said \"surname.\" And after all, \"Barnable\" is\nas much Smoky's \"own\" name as \"Evan\" is. I do admit, though, that I\ndon't know why Smoky's relatives would have called him by his father's\nfirst name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it is\nmuch less likely (to me at least) that both Smoky and his father\nwould allow their relatives to call Smoky Douglas (for example) if\nthat was really his father's name. It would have caused a lot of\nunnecessary confusion, if nothing else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the sentence we're discussing refers to a time after Smoky's\nfather has died.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2000-06-27T22:35:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: The Barnables", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 9:53 AM -0700 6/27/00, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nWilliam Ansley wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " At 10:40 PM -0700 6/24/00, Adam Stephanides wrote:\n >Smoky \"lived a lot in three different suburbs\n >with the same name in three different cities, and in each his relatives\n >called him by a different name--his own, his father's, and Smoky--which\n >last so suited his evanescence that he kept it.\" (\"Anonymity,\" I, 1, p.\n >6 in Bantam TPB.) Which seems to mean that Smoky's father was not\n >called Evan (since his name was \"different\"), and suggests that Smoky\n >was first addressed as Smoky by his relatives and not by his father,\n >though Smoky may still be his middle name.\n\n I re-read the whole book recently and rather carefully and so feel\n fairly confident when I state that this is the only part of the book\n where the origin of the nickname \"Smoky\" is discussed.\n\n However, I disagree somewhat with your interpretation of the passage\n you quote above. I think that when Crowley says \"his own, his\n father's, and Smoky\" he means that the first set of relatives in the\n first city called him Evan, the second set Barnable (his father's\n name in the sense of \"Mr. Barnable? That's my my father's name.\") and\n the third set Smoky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought of this interpretation, but rejected it on the grounds that\nthe narrator's vocabulary is (or seems) straightforward, without\nparaphrases of this type. My feeling is that had Crowley meant\n\"surname,\" he would have said \"surname.\" And after all, \"Barnable\" is\nas much Smoky's \"own\" name as \"Evan\" is. I do admit, though, that I\ndon't know why Smoky's relatives would have called him by his father's\nfirst name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " it is\n much less likely (to me at least) that both Smoky and his father\n would allow their relatives to call Smoky Douglas (for example) if\n that was really his father's name. It would have caused a lot of\n unnecessary confusion, if nothing else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, the sentence we're discussing refers to a time after Smoky's\nfather has died." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I guess that serves me right for bragging about how carefully I \nre-read LB. But I did read it carefully, it's just that my memory is \nshot.\n\nEven though the fact that Smoky's father was dead at the time \ncompletely vitiates my argument, I still find the use of \"father's \nname\" for surname to be less of a stretch than you do and feel my \ninterpretation is at least admissible. But you may well be right. \nRelatives can become confused.\n\nWilliam Ansley" } ] } ] }