{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2298",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 2298,
    "subject": "John Crowley heroic template",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2000-06-28T13:22:02+00:00",
    "last": "2000-06-28T13:22:02+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0029-0090@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi",
        "address": "mantis at sirius.com"
      },
      "date": "2000-06-28T13:22:02+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) John Crowley heroic template",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Alga wrote:\nThey are not poles; they are complementary. Smoky is terribly important;\nhe is chosen (though he is far to modest to envision himself this way).\nWithout him, the Tale could not be told. Look, this is a trope of\nCrowley's: The ordinary decent man finds himself in extraordinary\ncircumstances, and, without believing at all in the situation which\nothers seem to think merits action, agrees to do what is asked of him,\nto do his duty. It is the existential situation in a fairytale setting.\nNot only Smoky, but Rush who Speaks (from ES) and Pierce Moffit (from\nthe Aegypt series) are heroes of this sort, and I think that Loren\nCasaubon from Beasts started out this way, though he sort of dribbled\noff (like the book). But to reiterate, JCs guys do their damn duty. That\nis their task, their quest, and because they take up that burden,\nwillingly or not (Smoky is willing), the world whirrs."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Not that this will change alga's mind, but I'll list a few apparent\ncontradictions or exceptions.  SPOILERS for JC fiction to follow.\n\n\n\nTHE DEEP: the Visitor does not do his duty.  IIRC, once he finally figures\nout what his duty is, he decides to personally question his maker (rather\nthan going back and doing his duty post haste).  Everybody else is busy\nlooking out for \"number one,\" except for the Just--aye, there's your duty.\n\nBEASTS: a case might be made that many of the characters do not want to be\nmanipulated by one power, but don't mind being manipulated by another\npower, or they want to do the manipulating themselves (Sten, maybe; Reynard\ndefinitely).  Difficult to define \"duty\" in this case, although an easy\nanswer would be \"doing whatever Reynard wants you to do.\"  (Rather like\nbeing one of the Just.)\n\nENGINE SUMMER: Rush-as-we-know-him does not do his duty, rather, he is like\na rape victim who has just been violated for the umpteenth time.  Was it\nhis \"duty\" to leave Little Belaire?  It didn't seem like it: rather, he\nwanted to follow his wayward girlfriend, and nobody could (even try to?)\ntalk him out of it.  Was it his duty to become a saint?  That makes duty\nsound like \"fate\" or \"destiny\"--and we don't know that he became a saint,\nanyway.\n\nLITTLE, BIG: I won't argue here, since Smoky does due his duty, as you say.\nBut I will argue again for the creepy side of the family's translation to\nthe next world as being very much in the tradition of cult members doing\ntheir \"duty\" by drinking the cyanide-laced kool aid.  There is a spooky/icy\nquality to the ending.\n\nGREAT WORK OF TIME: here is a case where the hero (Denys) does his duty,\nand then comes to feel that the results are so horrible that he has to\nbetray the organization and the Empire in order to undo the whole thing.\n(That whole \"being one of the Just\" thing again.)\n\nAEGYPT: at some point in DAEMONOMANIA, Pierce has a very JC hero moment\n(which of course is true of all of the AEGYPT series) and thinks about how\nhard he has tried all his life to avoid all the powers that have tried to\nmanipulate him . . . then again, without giving anything away, Pierce\nhimself is seeming less like Smoky Barnable and more like George Mouse.\nNot to say anything against George Mouse!  Everybody loves him!  He is\npractically the co-star of LITTLE, BIG.  Still, there is a difference.  (If\nyou know what I mean you are ahead of me. <g>)\n\n=mantis="
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}