{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2303", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2303, "subject": "Mostly Crowley", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2000-06-29T23:49:04+00:00", "last": "2000-06-30T14:08:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "akt", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2000-06-29T23:49:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mostly Crowley", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Michael Andre-Driussi \n\nOK, semi back-off:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They are not poles; they are complementary. Smoky is terribly\nimportant;\nhe is chosen (though he is far to modest to envision himself this\nway).\nWithout him, the Tale could not be told. Look, this is a trope of\nCrowley's: The ordinary decent man finds himself in extraordinary\ncircumstances, and, without believing at all in the situation which\nothers seem to think merits action, agrees to do what is asked of\nhim,\nto do his duty. It is the existential situation in a fairytale\nsetting.\nNot only Smoky, but Rush who Speaks (from ES) and Pierce Moffit (from\nthe Aegypt series) are heroes of this sort, and I think that Loren\nCasaubon from Beasts started out this way, though he sort of dribbled\noff (like the book). But to reiterate, JCs guys do their damn duty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is their task, their quest, and because they take up that burden,\nwillingly or not (Smoky is willing), the world whirrs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not that this will change alga's mind, but I'll list a few apparent\ncontradictions or exceptions. SPOILERS for JC fiction to follow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "THE DEEP: the Visitor does not do his duty. IIRC, once he finally\nfigures\nout what his duty is, he decides to personally question his maker\n(rather\nthan going back and doing his duty post haste). Everybody else is\nbusy\nlooking out for \"number one,\" except for the Just--aye, there's your\nduty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. This book does not fit any sort of later JC pattern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BEASTS: a case might be made that many of the characters do not want\nto be\nmanipulated by one power, but don't mind being manipulated by another\npower, or they want to do the manipulating themselves (Sten, maybe;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reynard" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "definitely). Difficult to define \"duty\" in this case, although an\neasy\nanswer would be \"doing whatever Reynard wants you to do.\" (Rather\nlike\nbeing one of the Just.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My point was only that Loren may have been an early idea of this figure.\nBut the fact that JC does not *do* anything with Loren (so wastefully!)\nseems to me to indicate that he had not yet intellectualy articulated\nthis idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ENGINE SUMMER: Rush-as-we-know-him does not do his duty, rather, he is\nlike\na rape victim who has just been violated for the umpteenth time. Was\nit\nhis \"duty\" to leave Little Belaire? It didn't seem like it: rather,\nhe\nwanted to follow his wayward girlfriend, and nobody could (even try\nto?)\ntalk him out of it. Was it his duty to become a saint? That makes\nduty\nsound like \"fate\" or \"destiny\"--and we don't know that he became a\nsaint,\nanyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yes. But it does seem like something he had to do, just as Smoky\nhad to follow Alice's directives for the wedding. I wouldn't argue hard\nfor this, though it does seem to me that Rush is a little bit of a\nprototype for Smoky." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "LITTLE, BIG: I won't argue here, since Smoky does due his duty, as you\nsay.\nBut I will argue again for the creepy side of the family's translation\nto\nthe next world as being very much in the tradition of cult members\ndoing\ntheir \"duty\" by drinking the cyanide-laced kool aid. There is a\nspooky/icy\nquality to the ending." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not if you rejoice (as I do) in the sort of translation effect,\nwhereupon they move on to a new and probably quite lovely phase. The\ntruly joyous description of DA as Dame Kind seems to me to make this a\nparallel but even transcendent event to the wedding at the beginning of\nthe book--I don't see creepy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GREAT WORK OF TIME: here is a case where the hero (Denys) does his\nduty,\nand then comes to feel that the results are so horrible that he has to\nbetray the organization and the Empire in order to undo the whole\nthing.\n(That whole \"being one of the Just\" thing again.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're the expert here--I never invoked this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "AEGYPT: at some point in DAEMONOMANIA, Pierce has a very JC hero\nmoment\n(which of course is true of all of the AEGYPT series) and thinks about\nhow\nhard he has tried all his life to avoid all the powers that have tried\nto\nmanipulate him . . . then again, without giving anything away, Pierce\nhimself is seeming less like Smoky Barnable and more like George\nMouse.\nNot to say anything against George Mouse! Everybody loves him! He is\npractically the co-star of LITTLE, BIG. Still, there is a difference." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "you know what I mean you are ahead of me. )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To say anything here is to invoke DAEMONOMANIA, which you and I have\nread, but I don't think anyone else has. So we have to cool it. (But I\nlove George Mouse too, that incestuous old creep.)\n\nIn response to Nutria:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dumb me, no doubt, but a mystery left in my mind from Engine Summer\nis\nthat the people never seem to eat any food and seem to be sustained\nentirely on St. Bea's Bread smoke. Okay, okay, allusions to marijuana\nmaybe. But as this is an SF tale, something other than magic must be\nat\nwork. Rush and his buddy seem to last a whole winter with no food, in\na\ntrance.\nI'm sure someone has this figured out. So do me a favor, whydoncha,\nand\nlemme in on the answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not that this is a final answer, of course, bfwiw I thought the\nallusion\nwas to hashish rather than marijuana. And \"hash\" is the name of a\nfoodstuff, too.\n\nAs for the sfnal rational, the stuff was brought back by an\ninterstellar\nprobe. Like you said before, mana from heaven.\n\nThe winter they spent in a trance, that was due to a different\nsubstance,\nwasn't it? (Probably one of the daughters of medicine: those four\nlittle\npots. One was birth allowance, one was lighten the load, one was near\nimmortality) Because the St. Bea's Bread was something they smoked\nthree\nor four times a day, no big deal; but that winter in the treehouse was\nsomething different for Rush That Speaks, iirc.\n\nGo Ask Alice, I think she knows." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why, Ratty, have you never spent winter in a trance? No, I don't believe\nit! OK, yes, I can sort of explain this without reference to the text,\nthough I will do my scholarly duty if pressed.\n\nJC is making a drug joke, as he makes many through the book--it is\nwithout doubt the druggiest book I have ever read, including others,\nsupposedly mainstream, that were touted in the 60s and 70s. I've\nforgotten (without looking up) the specifics of the four pots, the\ndaughters of medicine, but the effect here is to cause hibernation, just\nlike bear hibernation. I don't think that's so weird.\n\nHonestly, Ratty, I am perplexed by your reactions both to this book and\nto LB. The sort of mellow and amused side to the drug culture (by which\nI do not mean sinister drugs) of the era can't be possibly be so foreign\nto you unless you are from another planet (which of course is possible).\nI think of you as a savvy reader. It's a comment on the times Why does\nit upset you so much? (Not snide, honestly interested.)\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-06-30T14:08:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Mostly Crowley", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Honestly, Ratty, I am perplexed by your reactions both to this book and\nto LB. The sort of mellow and amused side to the drug culture (by which\nI do not mean sinister drugs) of the era can't be possibly be so foreign\nto you unless you are from another planet (which of course is possible).\nI think of you as a savvy reader. It's a comment on the times Why does\nit upset you so much? (Not snide, honestly interested.)\n\n-alga" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tWell, it does not upset me. I'm not real cognizant of the \"mellow and\namused side of the drug culture\" bit, so I have to rely on people who are\nto fill in the gaps in my perception. \n\tAs for me, since you are interested: I've been an evangelical Christian\nall my life, and, like a great many people, I've never done any kind of\ndrugs (unless you count alcohol as such). At the same time, as a Calvinist,\nI have no objection in principle to the (moderate) use of recreational\ndrugs; and as a conservative-libertarian of sorts, I'm not in favor of\npresent-day US drug policies, for a variety of reasons. But, since their\nuse is presently outlawed in our society, and since I feel no compelling\nneed to use them, I never have. So, I'm not terribly alert to oblique\nallusions to them; I've not been in that \"world.\"\n\tI raised the question with reference to LB because it seemed to me that\nthe characters are generally all descending into a bad place from a good\nbeginning. Based on your interview with JC, I have to set aside such a\nreading, of course. But what I was wondering at the time was whether JC\nhimself was entering a caution about drugs. I suppose he was not. I'm not a\ndeconstructionist, and I have no interest in imposing my own opinions on\nthe writings of anyone. I was only interested in what JC himself was\ngetting at, interested in understanding the text as the author intended it.\n\tWhat I personally do not like about the character of George Mouse, though\nhe has some admirable qualities, is his pretty self-conscious engagement in\nincest, which as an evangelical Calvinist I DO object to!\n\tFWIW, the two JCs that I really like are ES and GWOT. And I did not see\nthe ending as some kind of rape. In fact, I found the ending rather moving,\na sort of neoplatonic ascent to heaven as it were. But I no longer trust my\nreadings of JC, and will leave it to others, and stick with interpreting\nwriters I'm more in tune with, like Linebarger and Wolfe!\n\tI trust that this reply better fixes my opinions for you.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }