{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2360",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
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  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 2360,
    "subject": "Lives and Times of the Master Torturers II",
    "messages": 1,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2000-08-19T13:42:43+00:00",
    "last": "2000-08-19T13:42:43+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0029-0175@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Talarican",
        "address": "exultnttalarican at mindspring.com"
      },
      "date": "2000-08-19T13:42:43+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Lives and Times of the Master Torturers II",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "The Palaemon Elevated After Restoration/Young Prodigy Gurloes Scenario\n\nMalrubius as remembered by Severian is described as seeming quite old, but\nhe was also very ill with something that suspiciously resembles tuberculosis\nor lung cancer (Citadel ). We assume he is elderly at the time of his death,\nbut he could indeed have been no more than middle aged and racked with\ndisease. Sev did not state exactly how old he was when Malrubius died, but\nindications are that Sev was well along with what we would think of as\nprimary school but not yet a teenager. As of  1 p.s. Sev  stated he had been\ndead \"several\" years. And we are told Malrubius died when Sev was a young\nboy, well before his term as captain. So it seems safe to hypothesize that\nMalrubius died around 11 p.s., give or take a couple of years. Palaemon\napparently succeeded Malrubius as the sole master of apprentices when\nMalrubius took to his deathbed.\n\nPalaemon is described in terms which we generally understand to mean he is\nquite elderly and has been so for as long as Sev can remember. In Palaemon's\nlife of course is found that wonderful puzzling data point indicating that\naround 30 p.s. he was a hale and healthy journeyman in his prime if not\nyoung, exiled for who-knows-what, who whipped the young Winnoc. If we figure\n\"journeyman\" Palaemon could have been as old as sixty when he flogged\nWinnoc, he would be a bit less than eighty when Malrubius died and ninety at\nthe time he gave Terminus Est to the disgraced Severian. Sometime in the\ndecade between Winnoc's flogging and Severian's birth, Palaemon was\nreadmitted to the bosom of his guild brothers and elevated to mastership.\nQuite a turnabout in attitude, wouldn't you say? Also, his eyesight\ndeteriorated or was damaged during that period. (aside - like Ultan, could\nhe have sacrificed his eyesight with too much reading?) But so far, no\nparticular problem with the timeline.\n\nTrying to fit Gurloes into this scheme without making him absurdly young\nbecomes a problem. Severian states that Gurloes has been a master at least\nsince Sev's birth. LU presumes that Gurloes is about sixty in 0 a.s., and\nthat is quite reasonable if it is axiomatic that master torturers are never\nelevated younger than forty, and Gurloes had been a master at least all of\nSev's life. The only hint offered of Gurloes' age is that statement he made\n\"It was much harder, believe me, forty years ago...\" (Shadow VII). LU seems\nto interpret this as saying Gurloes was Sev's age, eighteenish , forty years\npreviously, making him sixtyish when Sev is exiled.\n\nThe problem that arises is that Palaemon plainly indicates Gurloes was once\none of his pupils \"Since Gurloes rose to journeyman I have had no better\nscholar\"(Shadow XIV). This implies that Palaemon was a master teaching\napprentices at the time Gurloes was nineteen or twenty. Well, Gurloes would\nhave to be no older than forty-something in p.s. 1, if Palaemon was not\nelevated and appointed a teacher of apprentices until after the unspecified\ntime he returned from exile, perhaps a year or two after he whipped Winnoc.\nIn that scenario Gurloes could not have been much older than around twenty\nseven when Sev was born; therefore we would have to conclude that Gurloes\nwas elevated as a quite young man.  This is a stretch, but, considering what\nI will propose to be the probable state of the guild at the time, maybe not\nimpossible. Palaemon hinted that Gurloes was something of a prodigy.\n\nWe might speculate we can fudge a bit, invoking Sev's questionable memory,\nthat Gurloes might not have been elevated until Sev was, say, about five\nyears old, prior to which I doubt most children would be aware of rank.\nHowever, Gurloes' elevation would have occasioned a 'lofty' feast,\npresumably the only such occasion within young Sev's lifetime had such\noccurred. It is unlikely he would have forgotten or misunderstood the\ndignificance; to impress such memory and sense of significance is indeed the\npurpose and function of such ceremonies.\n\nFurthermore, we must now reconcile the fact that Palaemon was not appointed\nMaster of Apprentices until Malrubius took sick, about the time Sev was\nseven or eight perhaps, by which time Gurloes must already long since have\nbeen elevated to master. Clearly, Palaemon was Gurloes' tutor in some\ncapacity other than that of Master of Apprentices.\n\nEvidently Palaemon must have been a co-teacher along with Malrubius at least\nsince his return. Since Sev plainly remembers Malrubius as the tutor of the\nyounger lads, himself included, perhaps Palaemon specialized in teaching\nmore advanced and arcane topics to the older apprentices and interested\njourneymen for so long as Malrubius was well enough to teach the young'uns.\nWhen Malrubius took to his bed, Palaemon simply assumed responsibility for\nthe younger apprentices' primary education as well, there being no one else.\n\nThe other effect Palaemon's exile had on the timeline is more subtle, but\nprofound in its ramifications to the chronology. It puts a huge immovable\ndatum in the chronology which definitely fixes Palaemon's situation at that\ntime, with the implication that certain other events definitely took place\nbefore or after that point. It requires we assume Palaemon was either\nrehabilitated, elevated to master, and taught apprentice Gurloes during that\ndecade between Winnoc's whipping and Severian's birth, or else that Palaemon\nhad already been a master, and Gurloes' tutor, prior to his disgrace. In the\nlatter case, Winnoc's statement that Palaemon identified himself as a\njourneyman needs an explaination.\n\nWhether or not Malrubius ever headed the guild before Sev's birth, it seems\nlikely there were one or more other masters Severian never knew, never named\nin the text, still living during that decade between Palaemon's exile and\nSev's birth. We can safely conjecture that any masters other than Malrubius\nat that time probably were already elderly and/or ill while Palaemon was\nstill in exile, and felt the approach of death. They may have decided to\nembark on a desperate strategy to perpetuate the guild. They probably\nconsidered candidates for mastership from among younger if promising\njourneymen, and brothers with unorthodox, checkered pasts who in times past\nwould have been unthinkable as masters, if not pariahs forever.\n\nFinding evidently no promising candidates in the Matachin Tower pool of\njourneymen of that time, they recall Palaemon from his exile intending to\nrehabilitate him and eventually elevate him to master, though not to place\nhim in the chain of command. Palaemon evidently had been a scholar from\nyouth. Since Malrubius was already the tutor of the young apprentices,\nPalaemon must have specialized in research and the guild equivalent of\nhigher education. In due time Palaemon takes charge of an exceptionally apt\napprentice named Gurloes until he is masked some seven to two years prior to\nSev's birth, c.25 p.s. in the LU convention. In this scenario, he would have\nbeen around forty-five in 1 p.s. when Gurloes made that reference to his own\nboyhood forty years previously. So (to disagree in this instance with the LU\nversion) the time Gurloes had in mind with that statement would not have\nbeen his own senior year as an apprentice, but his early childhood.\n\nYears pass and any masters other than chronically ill Malrubius and aging\nPalaemon are dead or dying. Neither probably has the temperament or stamina\nto take on the responsibility of the headship of the guild, and of course\nPalaemon remains under a cloud. The masters again decide that the survival\nof the guild requires an even more serious break with tradition and\nprotocol. They promote the talented but eccentric and very young journeyman\nGurloes not only to mastership, but to be groomed to quickly assume the\nheadship of the guild. Soon afterward, all masters other than Gurloes,\nMalrubius, and Palaemon are dead, and infant Severian comes into the hands\nof the guild.\n\nChronology of the 3 guild masters\n\nc. 90? p.s. birth of Palaemon ( & Malrubius?)\n\nc. 70? p.s. Palaemon (and Malrubius?) masked.\n\nc. 70? p.s. Autarch Maruthas closes the roads \"that was when  I [Palaemon]\nwas your [Severian's, in 1 p.s.] age\"\n\nc. 44 p.s. latest probable date of Gurloes' birth\n\nc. 40 p.s. as Gurloes remembers, \"things were harder, much harder, forty\nyears ago\".  Gurloes is a small child at this time, one of the little\napprentices proud to run up and down steps on errands for the brothers.\n\nc.35? p.s. Malrubius elevated to master\n\nc. 32? p.s. senior Journeyman Palaemon exiled for unspecified offences\nagainst the guild.\n\nc. 30 p.s. Journeyman Palaemon flogs Winnoc, tells him he is exiled from the\nguild for an unspecified offense.\n\nc. 27?  To preserve the guild(?), Malrubius and unnamed elderly dying\nmasters decide to recall Palaemon. Palaemon reinstated in Matachin Tower,\nelevated to master, assumes responsibility to  teach older apprentices and\ndoes research.\n\nc. 27?  Promising senior apprentice Gurloes cranks the generator under\nPalaemon's tutelage\n\nc. 25?  Gurloes masked\n\nc. 21? p.s. ?Last master, other than Malrubius and Palaemon, dying. In an\nact of sheer desperation on the guild's part, Gurloes elevated to master in\nhis twenties, and installed as head of the guild.\n\nc. 20 p.s. Severian born.\n\nc. 11? p.s.  Malrubius dies, after being bedridden with a long illness.\nPalaemon becomes master of apprentices.\n\n2 p.s., summer and fall  Severian nearly drowns, saves Vodalus in the\nnecropolis, encounters Triskele, Valeria, Thecla, Rundesind, Ultan, etc\n\n2 p.s. spring  Drotte and Roche masked. Severian becomes captain of\napprentices.\n\n1 p.s.   Severian masked, proceeds to screw up royally"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}