{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2400", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2400, "subject": "And Why Did They Appear?", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2000-10-17T19:43:30+00:00", "last": "2000-10-19T12:54:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Talarican", "address": "exultnttalarican at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2000-10-17T19:43:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Why Did They Appear?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am finally ready to weigh in on \"And When They Appear\".\n\nI thought Tony Ellis' suggestion that House was itself a trap and danger, al\nla HAL 9000 or Harlan Ellison's AM, was intriguing but not a total\nexplanation. Tony's suggestion that the freezer as refuge might become an\ninescapable tomb for Sherby under the rubble of the house occurred to me\nalso.\n\nUnlike Mr. Million, a purely artificial variant of cyborg into which the\nactual synapses of a human are mapped, House appears to be ultimately just a\n\"cybernetic servomechanism\". House is highly intelligent but apparently\nprogrammed by conventional means, and is bound, in true sci-fi AI tradition,\nby a set of \"prime directives\" which governs its behavior. Furthermore,\nHouse is\nstationary and incapable of fleeing danger.\n\nSo what were House' prime directives and duties? House obviously acts as a\nhead servant, literally a butler, in charge of the household, and serves as\nSherby's tutor and guardian. House cannot allow Sherby to leave with anyone,\neven the human servants(?), without the explicit approval of the parents,\neven though they now cannot approve. House operates the Learning Center,\ntutoring his charge according to a curriculum, often in the guise of play.\n\nNow House finds itself in a situation for which its designers and\nprogrammers did not equip it: the master and mistress are dead; it is\nincreasingly being cut off from supplies and communication with the outside\nworld as the insurrection grows; it is caught between its mandate to protect\nand care for the boy, and the impending end of its ability to do so; and it\nfaces its own imminent demise. It seems reasonable to suppose that House\ncould be \"cracking\" under the stress a bit. In the sequel to _2001_ ,\nremember, HAL9000's breakdown was explained by Clarke as being caused by a\nsituation - being subjected to deliberate deception - for which the\ndesigners of its synthetic psychology neglected to allow.\n\nI'm just a bit uncomfortable with attributing all of House' actions to\ninsanity, though. \"Crazed Robot Guardian\" stories are as old as science\nfiction, and I like to think Mr. Wolfe had something less shopworn to\ncontribute.\n\nThe insurrection, whatever its issues might be (class warfare, literally?),\nis total; not only riffraff and perverts like Corporal Charlie participate,\nbut also the police and firemen. Rescue doesn't appear to be a possibility.\nFor Sherby's civilization, this is Ragnarok.\n\nNote that House decides to have this Christmas party for Sherby immediately\nafter the reconnaisance of Mouse and Kite reveals the extremity of the\nsituation, therefore the decision was a response to the observation. In my\ninterpretation, House realizes it has one brief opportunity to give Sherby a\nfinal lesson before he is torn from its grasp and sent forth. Therefore, I\nviewed House' actions primarily as an endgame whose object was to teach\nSherby something vitally important in those last moments. Given just hours,\nat most, to impart a final message to a young sheltered boy about to be\nsnatched into a totally different existence, what would it be?\n\n{I also am reminded of the dispersal-of-knowlege-to-the-barbarians idea\nplayed in BNS (the ransacking of Castle Baldanders; Cyriaca's thinking\nengines in their decline, discoursing with their disciples), although it's\nstretch to attribute such motives to House, who surely has no reason to be\nconcerned about the future welfare of strange rebels.}\n\nThe first visitor is none other than the \"reformed\" Ebenezer Scrooge. He\nexplains quite frankly his mission, if you like, and superficially it sounds\nlike a cornball line from that Bill Murray movie adaptation of _A Christmas\nCarol_: \"...in order that you may know a great secret...that there is a\nvagrant magic in Christmas still...\". Of course, Dickens' Scrooge, visited\nby phantoms, learned an important truth while there was still time, thus I\ntend to interpret his presence as another signal that Sherby is supposed to\nlearn truths from House's artificial phantoms just before it is too late,\nalso.\n\nI actually had to reread _A Christmas Carol_ to catch the connection of Ali\nBaba. Now, of all the details from _ACC_ to toss out, why that fleeting\nmention of Ali Baba? Then again, I still don't understand the significance\nof Smokey.\n\nNext comes Fox-Loki and the club dancers, followed by the Yule log party.\nWolfe signals that they symbolize the insurrection mob who is to come. The\nYule log party bumping the door with their wood foreshadows the mob later\nbanging at the door with their log battering ram. Sherby thinks he glimpses\nthe 'fox' in the crowd milling around the house. Ali Baba and the Yule log\nparty build a holo-fire; of course the mob later builds one for real.\n\nThen, the fox explains yet more pagan sun-symbolism to Sherby and directs\nhis attention to the wheel of fire rolling down the mountain (courtesy of\nthe advancing rebels) and its connection to the holly wreath, a symbol of,\nyes, the sun's 'wheel of fire'. 'Yule', BTW, is said to come from the\nAnglo-Saxon word for 'wheel', a metaphor for the sun and for time.\n\nIf the Yule party symbolizes the insurrectionists, what is the point? The\nclub dance and the Yule log are explained as pagan solstice rituals designed\nto ensure the Sun's return in the spring in spite of the depredations of\nLoki-the-fox who seeks to steal it. The decadent civilization of Sherby's\nparents is undergoing destruction and renewal, just as the coming of the New\nSun caused the destruction of the old Urth. Is House trying to explain to\nSherby that the insurrection is just a cusp in a civilization's cycle of\ndecay and rebirth, and that all of life is composed of such?\n\nChristmas Rose and Knecht Rupprecht also speak of themselves as representing\nrenewal, and its precursor Death. Knecht Rupprecht tells Sherby another\n'secret': his preChristian pagan connection with\nfertility-through-death-and-decay, another cyclic renewal theme. Is this\ndeath-and-renewal cycle, and the pagan celebration of it, the \"vagrant\n magic\" to which Scrooge referred?\n\nOther figures seem to represent the historical reality buried behind the\nmodern traditions of Christmas: Bishop Nicholas of Myra, Fr. Eddi (Eddius\nStephanus, a writer of chants and music, he wrote a hagiography of the\nmentioned St. Wilfred, a missionary who persuaded British Celtic clerics to\nobserve Roman liturgy and the supremacy of the Pope). And of course another\n\"realistic\" figure is introduced in His turn. There seems to be a play of\ntwins and opposites and counterparts (the quintessential Wolfean theme) on\nseveral levels: solid v. holo, historical v. folklore, Christian v. pagan,\nand so forth.\n\nIt is interesting to note that House-as-itself kept warning Sherby against\nvisiting the corpses of his parents in the freezer, even as\nHouse-as-Father-Eddi advised him to take refuge there. Why , if not due to\ninsanity? Could the freezer paradox represent \"second thoughts\" on House'\npart as the rebels actually enter the estate. I have to agree that at this\npoint Wolfe (not House) is apparently giving Sherby an opportunity to choose\nchange and life, over literally frozen adherence to a vanished past.\n\nOr, perchance, there is a plan at work here, a scheme not necessarily of\nHouse.\n\nSherby \"finds Jesus\", so literally so that he does not recognize Him,\nthinking him just another kid like himself (isn't that the point?). Later,\nas the mob breaks in, he glimpses the child Jesus again, but House\nimplicitly denies generating Him. Is this a \"Lo I am with you always\"\nmessage of hope imparted by a higher power than House or Carker's Army?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Talarican", "address": "exultnttalarican at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2000-10-17T19:43:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) And Why Did They Appear?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am finally ready to weigh in on \"And When They Appear\".\n\nI thought Tony Ellis' suggestion that House was itself a trap and danger, al\nla HAL 9000 or Harlan Ellison's AM, was intriguing but not a total\nexplanation. Tony's suggestion that the freezer as refuge might become an\ninescapable tomb for Sherby under the rubble of the house occurred to me\nalso.\n\nUnlike Mr. Million, a purely artificial variant of cyborg into which the\nactual synapses of a human are mapped, House appears to be ultimately just a\n\"cybernetic servomechanism\". House is highly intelligent but apparently\nprogrammed by conventional means, and is bound, in true sci-fi AI tradition,\nby a set of \"prime directives\" which governs its behavior. Furthermore,\nHouse is\nstationary and incapable of fleeing danger.\n\nSo what were House' prime directives and duties? House obviously acts as a\nhead servant, literally a butler, in charge of the household, and serves as\nSherby's tutor and guardian. House cannot allow Sherby to leave with anyone,\neven the human servants(?), without the explicit approval of the parents,\neven though they now cannot approve. House operates the Learning Center,\ntutoring his charge according to a curriculum, often in the guise of play.\n\nNow House finds itself in a situation for which its designers and\nprogrammers did not equip it: the master and mistress are dead; it is\nincreasingly being cut off from supplies and communication with the outside\nworld as the insurrection grows; it is caught between its mandate to protect\nand care for the boy, and the impending end of its ability to do so; and it\nfaces its own imminent demise. It seems reasonable to suppose that House\ncould be \"cracking\" under the stress a bit. In the sequel to _2001_ ,\nremember, HAL9000's breakdown was explained by Clarke as being caused by a\nsituation - being subjected to deliberate deception - for which the\ndesigners of its synthetic psychology neglected to allow.\n\nI'm just a bit uncomfortable with attributing all of House' actions to\ninsanity, though. \"Crazed Robot Guardian\" stories are as old as science\nfiction, and I like to think Mr. Wolfe had something less shopworn to\ncontribute.\n\nThe insurrection, whatever its issues might be (class warfare, literally?),\nis total; not only riffraff and perverts like Corporal Charlie participate,\nbut also the police and firemen. Rescue doesn't appear to be a possibility.\nFor Sherby's civilization, this is Ragnarok.\n\nNote that House decides to have this Christmas party for Sherby immediately\nafter the reconnaisance of Mouse and Kite reveals the extremity of the\nsituation, therefore the decision was a response to the observation. In my\ninterpretation, House realizes it has one brief opportunity to give Sherby a\nfinal lesson before he is torn from its grasp and sent forth. Therefore, I\nviewed House' actions primarily as an endgame whose object was to teach\nSherby something vitally important in those last moments. Given just hours,\nat most, to impart a final message to a young sheltered boy about to be\nsnatched into a totally different existence, what would it be?\n\n{I also am reminded of the dispersal-of-knowlege-to-the-barbarians idea\nplayed in BNS (the ransacking of Castle Baldanders; Cyriaca's thinking\nengines in their decline, discoursing with their disciples), although it's\nstretch to attribute such motives to House, who surely has no reason to be\nconcerned about the future welfare of strange rebels.}\n\nThe first visitor is none other than the \"reformed\" Ebenezer Scrooge. He\nexplains quite frankly his mission, if you like, and superficially it sounds\nlike a cornball line from that Bill Murray movie adaptation of _A Christmas\nCarol_: \"...in order that you may know a great secret...that there is a\nvagrant magic in Christmas still...\". Of course, Dickens' Scrooge, visited\nby phantoms, learned an important truth while there was still time, thus I\ntend to interpret his presence as another signal that Sherby is supposed to\nlearn truths from House's artificial phantoms just before it is too late,\nalso.\n\nI actually had to reread _A Christmas Carol_ to catch the connection of Ali\nBaba. Now, of all the details from _ACC_ to toss out, why that fleeting\nmention of Ali Baba? Then again, I still don't understand the significance\nof Smokey.\n\nNext comes Fox-Loki and the club dancers, followed by the Yule log party.\nWolfe signals that they symbolize the insurrection mob who is to come. The\nYule log party bumping the door with their wood foreshadows the mob later\nbanging at the door with their log battering ram. Sherby thinks he glimpses\nthe 'fox' in the crowd milling around the house. Ali Baba and the Yule log\nparty build a holo-fire; of course the mob later builds one for real.\n\nThen, the fox explains yet more pagan sun-symbolism to Sherby and directs\nhis attention to the wheel of fire rolling down the mountain (courtesy of\nthe advancing rebels) and its connection to the holly wreath, a symbol of,\nyes, the sun's 'wheel of fire'. 'Yule', BTW, is said to come from the\nAnglo-Saxon word for 'wheel', a metaphor for the sun and for time.\n\nIf the Yule party symbolizes the insurrectionists, what is the point? The\nclub dance and the Yule log are explained as pagan solstice rituals designed\nto ensure the Sun's return in the spring in spite of the depredations of\nLoki-the-fox who seeks to steal it. The decadent civilization of Sherby's\nparents is undergoing destruction and renewal, just as the coming of the New\nSun caused the destruction of the old Urth. Is House trying to explain to\nSherby that the insurrection is just a cusp in a civilization's cycle of\ndecay and rebirth, and that all of life is composed of such?\n\nChristmas Rose and Knecht Rupprecht also speak of themselves as representing\nrenewal, and its precursor Death. Knecht Rupprecht tells Sherby another\n'secret': his preChristian pagan connection with\nfertility-through-death-and-decay, another cyclic renewal theme. Is this\ndeath-and-renewal cycle, and the pagan celebration of it, the \"vagrant\n magic\" to which Scrooge referred?\n\nOther figures seem to represent the historical reality buried behind the\nmodern traditions of Christmas: Bishop Nicholas of Myra, Fr. Eddi (Eddius\nStephanus, a writer of chants and music, he wrote a hagiography of the\nmentioned St. Wilfred, a missionary who persuaded British Celtic clerics to\nobserve Roman liturgy and the supremacy of the Pope). And of course another\n\"realistic\" figure is introduced in His turn. There seems to be a play of\ntwins and opposites and counterparts (the quintessential Wolfean theme) on\nseveral levels: solid v. holo, historical v. folklore, Christian v. pagan,\nand so forth.\n\nIt is interesting to note that House-as-itself kept warning Sherby against\nvisiting the corpses of his parents in the freezer, even as\nHouse-as-Father-Eddi advised him to take refuge there. Why , if not due to\ninsanity? Could the freezer paradox represent \"second thoughts\" on House'\npart as the rebels actually enter the estate. I have to agree that at this\npoint Wolfe (not House) is apparently giving Sherby an opportunity to choose\nchange and life, over literally frozen adherence to a vanished past.\n\nOr, perchance, there is a plan at work here, a scheme not necessarily of\nHouse.\n\nSherby \"finds Jesus\", so literally so that he does not recognize Him,\nthinking him just another kid like himself (isn't that the point?). Later,\nas the mob breaks in, he glimpses the child Jesus again, but House\nimplicitly denies generating Him. Is this a \"Lo I am with you always\"\nmessage of hope imparted by a higher power than House or Carker's Army?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-10-17T22:23:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) And Why Did They Appear?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Talarican\" \nIt is interesting to note that House-as-itself kept warning Sherby against\nvisiting the corpses of his parents in the freezer, even as\nHouse-as-Father-Eddi advised him to take refuge there. Why , if not due to\ninsanity? Could the freezer paradox represent \"second thoughts\" on House'\npart as the rebels actually enter the estate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I take it you mean that on the one hand, House knows that going into the\nfreezer is a bad idea, while on the other, House sees no alternative way to\nsave Sherby? Thus, one of the \"savior\" personages advises it, even though\nHouse knows it is not a good thing?\n Hey, if shutting down the listserve for a couple of weeks results in\nposts as good as this one, let's shut it down more often! Great stuff.\n\nPatera Nutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "2000-10-17T22:23:08+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) And Why Did They Appear?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Talarican\" \nIt is interesting to note that House-as-itself kept warning Sherby against\nvisiting the corpses of his parents in the freezer, even as\nHouse-as-Father-Eddi advised him to take refuge there. Why , if not due to\ninsanity? Could the freezer paradox represent \"second thoughts\" on House'\npart as the rebels actually enter the estate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I take it you mean that on the one hand, House knows that going into the\nfreezer is a bad idea, while on the other, House sees no alternative way to\nsave Sherby? Thus, one of the \"savior\" personages advises it, even though\nHouse knows it is not a good thing?\n Hey, if shutting down the listserve for a couple of weeks results in\nposts as good as this one, let's shut it down more often! Great stuff.\n\nPatera Nutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-10-19T12:54:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: And Why Did They Appear?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Talarican wrote:\nI thought Tony Ellis' suggestion that House was itself a trap and danger, al\nla HAL 9000 or Harlan Ellison's AM, was intriguing but not a total\nexplanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, that wasn’t quite what I was trying to suggest. House as a\ndanger, yes, but as a ‘mad computer’, no.\n\nI think that ‘…And When They Appear’ is, among other things, a\nrite-of-passage story, as I’ve said before. I think that one of the\n“other things” it also is, however, is an exploration of the relative\nmerits of the real versus the fantastic, the ‘spiritually true’ or\nwhatever you want to call it. We’re repeatedly shown that lonely little\nSherby wants real things, and surely he has a point, but House’s\nillusions, as Talarican points out, embody truths just as important.\n\nThe two themes, rite-of-passage and reality-versus-fantasy, are\ncomplementary. They're two sides of the same coin: to leave behind\nchildhood is to stop believing in Father Christmas. “When I was a child…\nI thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish\nthings.”\n\nI think that the danger House embodies is metaphysical rather than\nactual. It doesn’t lure Sherby down to the basement in the HAL-like\nexpectation that he will be trapped there, but to protect him.\nNevertheless we, as reader, are expected to pick up on the fact that\nSherby -would- have been trapped there, had he stayed, and to ponder the\nsuggestiveness of a freezer (containing one's dead parents) as the best\nshelter House has to offer against brute reality. To live, Sherby has to\nescape House." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The insurrection, whatever its issues might be (class warfare, literally?),\nis total; not only riffraff and perverts like Corporal Charlie participate,\nbut also the police and firemen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, these are House's holos, trying vainly to keep the attackers\nat bay - that's why one of them has the face of the fox, and nobody\ntakes much notice of them. Yet another way of showing that fantasy and\nmake-believe can't protect you from reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is House trying to explain to\nSherby that the insurrection is just a cusp in a civilization's cycle of\ndecay and rebirth, and that all of life is composed of such?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that’s certainly part of what it is trying to do, yes. The\n‘magic of Christmas’ can be described on all sorts of different levels,\nthough, and I think House really wants Sherby to learn all of them." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony Ellis\nOn-line Editor, PC Format magazine\n01225 442244 x2349\nhttp://www.pcformat.co.uk" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk" }, "date": "2000-10-19T12:54:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: And Why Did They Appear?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Talarican wrote:\nI thought Tony Ellis' suggestion that House was itself a trap and danger, al\nla HAL 9000 or Harlan Ellison's AM, was intriguing but not a total\nexplanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, that wasn’t quite what I was trying to suggest. House as a\ndanger, yes, but as a ‘mad computer’, no.\n\nI think that ‘…And When They Appear’ is, among other things, a\nrite-of-passage story, as I’ve said before. I think that one of the\n“other things” it also is, however, is an exploration of the relative\nmerits of the real versus the fantastic, the ‘spiritually true’ or\nwhatever you want to call it. We’re repeatedly shown that lonely little\nSherby wants real things, and surely he has a point, but House’s\nillusions, as Talarican points out, embody truths just as important.\n\nThe two themes, rite-of-passage and reality-versus-fantasy, are\ncomplementary. They're two sides of the same coin: to leave behind\nchildhood is to stop believing in Father Christmas. “When I was a child…\nI thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish\nthings.”\n\nI think that the danger House embodies is metaphysical rather than\nactual. It doesn’t lure Sherby down to the basement in the HAL-like\nexpectation that he will be trapped there, but to protect him.\nNevertheless we, as reader, are expected to pick up on the fact that\nSherby -would- have been trapped there, had he stayed, and to ponder the\nsuggestiveness of a freezer (containing one's dead parents) as the best\nshelter House has to offer against brute reality. To live, Sherby has to\nescape House." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The insurrection, whatever its issues might be (class warfare, literally?),\nis total; not only riffraff and perverts like Corporal Charlie participate,\nbut also the police and firemen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, these are House's holos, trying vainly to keep the attackers\nat bay - that's why one of them has the face of the fox, and nobody\ntakes much notice of them. Yet another way of showing that fantasy and\nmake-believe can't protect you from reality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is House trying to explain to\nSherby that the insurrection is just a cusp in a civilization's cycle of\ndecay and rebirth, and that all of life is composed of such?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that’s certainly part of what it is trying to do, yes. The\n‘magic of Christmas’ can be described on all sorts of different levels,\nthough, and I think House really wants Sherby to learn all of them." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Tony Ellis\nOn-line Editor, PC Format magazine\n01225 442244 x2349\nhttp://www.pcformat.co.uk" } ] } ] }