{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2403", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2403, "subject": "PEACE: The Princess and her Four Suitors", "messages": 3, "voices": 2, "first": "2000-10-18T16:12:49+00:00", "last": "2000-10-22T12:29:05+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2000-10-18T16:12:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: The Princess and her Four Suitors", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the first case of a fairy tale story in PEACE that clearly and\nobviously relates directly to Den's life: \"The Princess...\" is parallel to\nOlivia and her suitors.\n\nIn brief, the tale tells of a strange prophesy regarding the infant\nprincess (a paraphrase: earth, sea, air will try; but fire will win her),\nfor which reason she is placed in a tower at sea. She grows to marrying\nage, and a series of suitors brave the dangers to attempt to win her.\nThree suitors try and fail, then the story breaks off.\n\nPrincess Elaia . . . (Greek \"of the olive\") . . Olivia\nPrince of Gnomes . . Earth . . . Professor Robert Peacock\nYoung merchant . . . Sea . . . . James Macafee (dept. store owner)\nPrince of Clouds . . Air . . . . Stewart Blaine (banker)\n__________ . . . . . Fire. . . . Julius Smart (alchemist)\n\nPeacock is assigned to Earth, fitting with his archaeological field trips;\nhis troglodyte fantasy expounded to Olivia (almost a courtship song).\n\nMacafee is assigned to merchant/Sea, not too bad since his department store\nhas things from around the world (transported by sea), and his courtship\ninvolves that Chinese egg.\n\nBlaine, whose courtship remains unrecorded (but the princess makes her\nthird suitor do all sorts of dirty, degrading work).\n\nSmart, who married Olivia (and alchemists traditionally created their\nproducts through fire).\n\nSo far, so good.\n\nThe story itself seems to be one taken from Andrew Lang's fairy books\n(based upon the context it appears in; the style of the story; the\nillustrations it has), and since the text of PEACE mentions THE GREEN FAIRY\nBOOK, we might reasonably assume it to be there.\n\nIt is not. Nor is it in any of the many other Lang books.\n\nNevermind research--intuitively we know that the structure itself is\nunusual: we expect there to be three suitors, with the third one\nsuccessful; we also worry a bit about the grimm side of \"fire will win her.\"\n\nThis common sense is buttressed by research in fairy tale index: never a\ncase of four suitors.\n\nThree suitors: princess offered to correct guesser (3 caskets); princess\nwon by the combined efforts of three suitors, so to whom is she awarded?\n(these stories feature a judge who is neither princess nor suitor).\n\nFive suitors: \"The Lady and Her Five Suitors,\" a comedy in THE ARABIAN\nNIGHTS where the adultress wins.\n\nSix men: \"The Vampire's Fourth Story: A Woman Who Told the Truth\" (in\nVIKRAM AND THE VAMPIRE, another Burton translation, this one from India).\n\nAnd yet, the pattern of four suitors is not all that unfamiliar to us,\nsince it appears in TBOTNS.\n\nPrincess . . . Foila (armiger's daughter)\nFirst . . . Hallvard (the seal hunter)\nSecond . . . Melito (the farm boy)\nThird . . . Loyal to the Group of Seventeen (Ascian officer P.O.W.)\nFourth . . . Foila/death by fire\n\nYep, there's that \"bride burning\" thing again.\n\nSo for the time being, let's consider this a Wolfe story that we have seen\nat least two times.\n\nWithin the context of PEACE, it amounts to another subtle forgery (amid\ncountless forgeries); just as the later story of \"ben Yahya and the Marid\"\namounts to an ARABIAN NIGHTS forgery.\n\nSo the \"Princess\" fragment reflects and explains the fragment we have of\nOlivia's courtship, marriage (to Julius Smart, the fourth suitor), married\nlife (adultress and glutton), and later fate (killed by a car while\ncrossing the street). Combining these two fragments, we can guess at the\nparts missing to both: the courtship of Blaine, for example; and how the\nfairy tale would end.\n\nBut wait: Olivia's life after marriage seems like an odd match to the fairy\ntale beginning, doesn't it? (The poor little princess morphs into a\ndestructive sow goddess?) Well, it did to me, at least, until I looked at\nthe fairy tale more closely.\n\nIf the princess is a virtual prisoner, we would expect the king to act more\nlike her jailor, but instead he asks after each vanished suitor, and the\nprincess gives vague, ellusive answers. This suggests that the princess\nhas the power, and is living apart by her own design and desire (which\ncertainly seems to fit Olivia); and it almost seems as if the princess has\nactually _consumed_ the three men.\n\nWell! This puts a different spin on things: the princess is perhaps less\nAndromeda than she is a siren. Her exile is perhaps less for her safety\nthan the safety of the kingdom. In short, she is a monster-bride.\n\nAh, but she is also the bride of Frankenstein. \n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2000-10-18T16:12:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: The Princess and her Four Suitors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the first case of a fairy tale story in PEACE that clearly and\nobviously relates directly to Den's life: \"The Princess...\" is parallel to\nOlivia and her suitors.\n\nIn brief, the tale tells of a strange prophesy regarding the infant\nprincess (a paraphrase: earth, sea, air will try; but fire will win her),\nfor which reason she is placed in a tower at sea. She grows to marrying\nage, and a series of suitors brave the dangers to attempt to win her.\nThree suitors try and fail, then the story breaks off.\n\nPrincess Elaia . . . (Greek \"of the olive\") . . Olivia\nPrince of Gnomes . . Earth . . . Professor Robert Peacock\nYoung merchant . . . Sea . . . . James Macafee (dept. store owner)\nPrince of Clouds . . Air . . . . Stewart Blaine (banker)\n__________ . . . . . Fire. . . . Julius Smart (alchemist)\n\nPeacock is assigned to Earth, fitting with his archaeological field trips;\nhis troglodyte fantasy expounded to Olivia (almost a courtship song).\n\nMacafee is assigned to merchant/Sea, not too bad since his department store\nhas things from around the world (transported by sea), and his courtship\ninvolves that Chinese egg.\n\nBlaine, whose courtship remains unrecorded (but the princess makes her\nthird suitor do all sorts of dirty, degrading work).\n\nSmart, who married Olivia (and alchemists traditionally created their\nproducts through fire).\n\nSo far, so good.\n\nThe story itself seems to be one taken from Andrew Lang's fairy books\n(based upon the context it appears in; the style of the story; the\nillustrations it has), and since the text of PEACE mentions THE GREEN FAIRY\nBOOK, we might reasonably assume it to be there.\n\nIt is not. Nor is it in any of the many other Lang books.\n\nNevermind research--intuitively we know that the structure itself is\nunusual: we expect there to be three suitors, with the third one\nsuccessful; we also worry a bit about the grimm side of \"fire will win her.\"\n\nThis common sense is buttressed by research in fairy tale index: never a\ncase of four suitors.\n\nThree suitors: princess offered to correct guesser (3 caskets); princess\nwon by the combined efforts of three suitors, so to whom is she awarded?\n(these stories feature a judge who is neither princess nor suitor).\n\nFive suitors: \"The Lady and Her Five Suitors,\" a comedy in THE ARABIAN\nNIGHTS where the adultress wins.\n\nSix men: \"The Vampire's Fourth Story: A Woman Who Told the Truth\" (in\nVIKRAM AND THE VAMPIRE, another Burton translation, this one from India).\n\nAnd yet, the pattern of four suitors is not all that unfamiliar to us,\nsince it appears in TBOTNS.\n\nPrincess . . . Foila (armiger's daughter)\nFirst . . . Hallvard (the seal hunter)\nSecond . . . Melito (the farm boy)\nThird . . . Loyal to the Group of Seventeen (Ascian officer P.O.W.)\nFourth . . . Foila/death by fire\n\nYep, there's that \"bride burning\" thing again.\n\nSo for the time being, let's consider this a Wolfe story that we have seen\nat least two times.\n\nWithin the context of PEACE, it amounts to another subtle forgery (amid\ncountless forgeries); just as the later story of \"ben Yahya and the Marid\"\namounts to an ARABIAN NIGHTS forgery.\n\nSo the \"Princess\" fragment reflects and explains the fragment we have of\nOlivia's courtship, marriage (to Julius Smart, the fourth suitor), married\nlife (adultress and glutton), and later fate (killed by a car while\ncrossing the street). Combining these two fragments, we can guess at the\nparts missing to both: the courtship of Blaine, for example; and how the\nfairy tale would end.\n\nBut wait: Olivia's life after marriage seems like an odd match to the fairy\ntale beginning, doesn't it? (The poor little princess morphs into a\ndestructive sow goddess?) Well, it did to me, at least, until I looked at\nthe fairy tale more closely.\n\nIf the princess is a virtual prisoner, we would expect the king to act more\nlike her jailor, but instead he asks after each vanished suitor, and the\nprincess gives vague, ellusive answers. This suggests that the princess\nhas the power, and is living apart by her own design and desire (which\ncertainly seems to fit Olivia); and it almost seems as if the princess has\nactually _consumed_ the three men.\n\nWell! This puts a different spin on things: the princess is perhaps less\nAndromeda than she is a siren. Her exile is perhaps less for her safety\nthan the safety of the kingdom. In short, she is a monster-bride.\n\nAh, but she is also the bride of Frankenstein. \n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-10-22T12:29:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: The Princess and her Four Suitors", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nPeacock is assigned to Earth, fitting with his archaeological field trips;\nhis troglodyte fantasy expounded to Olivia (almost a courtship song).\n\nMacafee is assigned to merchant/Sea, not too bad since his department store\nhas things from around the world (transported by sea), and his courtship\ninvolves that Chinese egg." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a way, though, Peacock's and Macafee's courtships are inversions of\nthe fairy tale. Peacock discovers rare, hidden things but (presumably\nunlike the prince of gnomes) keeps them for himself. And in the Chinese\negg affair, Olivia tries to maneuver Macafee into using his trading\nprowess for her benefit, like the merchant; but her plan backfires\nsomehow, and she ends up buying the egg herself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blaine, whose courtship remains unrecorded (but the princess makes her\nthird suitor do all sorts of dirty, degrading work)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the inversion also applies to Blaine: he makes out that running a\nbank doesn't interest him and is beneath him, but from his overheard\nwords to Ricepie (p. 91 of the first edition) we know this is a pose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The story itself seems to be one taken from Andrew Lang's fairy books\n(based upon the context it appears in; the style of the story; the\nillustrations it has), and since the text of PEACE mentions THE GREEN FAIRY\nBOOK, we might reasonably assume it to be there.\n\nIt is not. Nor is it in any of the many other Lang books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are any of the many embedded tales in Wolfe's works taken directly from\n(as opposed to being modelled on) an earlier work? None spring\nimmediately to mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the princess is a virtual prisoner, we would expect the king to act more\nlike her jailor, but instead he asks after each vanished suitor, and the\nprincess gives vague, ellusive answers. This suggests that the princess\nhas the power, and is living apart by her own design and desire (which\ncertainly seems to fit Olivia); and it almost seems as if the princess has\nactually _consumed_ the three men.\n\nWell! This puts a different spin on things: the princess is perhaps less\nAndromeda than she is a siren. Her exile is perhaps less for her safety\nthan the safety of the kingdom. In short, she is a monster-bride." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cute; but Weer explicitly attributes the princess's exile to the king's\njealousy of the princess's future husband (62). Nor does his\nquestioning strike me as inconsistent with his role as jailer: he wants\nto know if the unwelcome suitors are still threats.\n\nIt's true, though, that neither the princess nor Olivia are portrayed as\nvery likeable: both try to milk their suitors for all they're worth (the\nprincess more successfully). Certainly Olivia, at least as portrayed by\nWeer, comes off badly compared with the principal women in Weer's\npre-Olivia life: her scheming around the Chinese egg contrasts\nunfavorably with Weer's mother's generosity with her father's gift, and\nher cosmopolitanism comes off as shallow and artificial compared with\nHannah's \"roots\". (On the other hand, the paragraph on p. 68 beginning\n\"Nor death, but only once\" seems to be Weer's tribute to his aunt.)\n\nIncidentally, there's an odd parallel between the princess's suitors and\nthe imaginary races Weer describes in the course of describing his\nknife, in one of the most enigmatic passages of an enigmatic book.\n(16-17) The orange people worship sundails, and the first suitor has a\nshield that looks like a sundail; the scarlet people are skilled in\nreatil merchandising, and the second suitor is a merchant. The\nparallelism is less clear with the third suitor, but his bodyguard may\nreflect the russet brown people's skill at soldiery. What, if anything,\nthis means I have no idea.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }