{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2420", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2420, "subject": "PEACE: enigma Doris, Cinderella electric", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2000-10-26T09:39:35+00:00", "last": "2000-10-26T14:30:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2000-10-26T09:39:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: enigma Doris, Cinderella electric", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What a day that was for President Den: Bill Batton with his clockwork\norange, er, clockwork elephant; Eleanor Bold with her rather ominous\nrequest to plant a tree on his grave (\"I'm not dead, I feel better--much\nbetter!\"); and dinner with dog man Charles Turner!\n\nDifficult to date this day, other than to say that Den is President (safe\nbet: age 50 to 60; wild range: age 41 to 60ish). Is it within the first\nfew years of his Presidency, or say a dozen years in?\n\nSome relatively short time after the dinner, Charlie Turner wrote his\nletter to Den, wherein we learn that they talked a lot about a new carny\ngirl named Doris and tried to think up a happy solution for her situation.\nCharlie gives us the background info and then goes into \"what happened\nnext\": as the picture develops we see that Doris is Cinderella.\n\nDoris . . . . . . . . . . Cinderella\nMrs. Mason . . . . . . . wicked step-mother\nArline Mason . . . . . . step-sister\nCandy Mason . . . . . . . step-sister\nTom Lavine . . . . . . . Prince\nOld Lady from Kilgore . . fairy godmother\nCharlie Turner . . . . . narrator/animal assistant*\n\n(* Some versions of Cinderella have the girl's dead mother rather than a\nfairy god mother, and this mom often possesses the body of an animal, which\nthen talks to and assists Cinderella.)\n\nBut this is a twisted version of Cinderella, where the poor girl gets\nbeaten by the others and then commits suicide through electrocution.\n\n(We can even see Charlie's motives for telling the tale: at first it seems\nlike it would be the perfect set-up for a con job of one kind or another, a\nway to fleece a wealthy old man. But the death of the girl scuttles that\nnotion, doesn't it?)\n\nSo easy! So obvious! So clear!\n\nAh, but the reference points to Den's life have been erased. Hence, the\nDoris enigma: who is she, or who does Den think she might be, that he cares\nso much about her?\n\nWho is the woman in Den's life who looks like Carole Lombard?\n\nIf you think that dinner with Charlie happened twelve or more years after\nthe Gold Hunt (nevermind what year of Presidency), then you might suspect\nthat Doris is the daughter of Den and Sherry Gold.\n\nIf you think the dinner happened within a few years of the Gold Hunt, then\n(you assume that Den became President shortly after the Gold Hunt, and) you\nmight suspect that Doris is Sherry Gold herself.\n\nIf you are willing to think Doris is a daughter of Den, then maybe you can\nincrease the field to include Lois as her possible mother.\n\nWhoever she is, it is relatively easy for me to imagine the following:\nCharlie shows up to meet the (new) President, suggesting that Smart\nmaintained some link to the carnies (perhaps he even inherited Tilly's\ninvisible empire--is Charlie the emmissary to visit their new king?); at\nthe dinner, Den recognizes Doris in a photo; Den and Charlie try to plot a\nhappy landing (so Charlie is a soft agent of Den); afterwards, Den arranges\nfor some sort of help, the \"fairy godmother\" at least, maybe even a spy\namong the carnies as well; the agent arrives and buys Doris new clothes . .\n. but then the happy plot spins out of control and tragedy follows.\n\nHowever, there are some readers (for instance Bill S. and Roy C. Lackey)\nwho find Charlie's sudden appearance simply too weird to be true within the\nrealistic frame. They think that Den is making it up: the visit, the\ndinner, the letter. It is all a vehicle to tell the tale he cannot bear to\ntell--well, I can agree with that part, but if Den is making things up, and\npeople in the astral projection timeframe =can see and hear= the stuff he's\nmaking up (Bill Batton and Miss Birkhead both see Charlie at the factory),\nthen it seems to me that rules seemingly established throughout the novel\nare being broken, or bent.\n\nWhich, in turn, might be a good thing: that Den is finally gaining mastery.\nAfter failing to convince Doctors V and B; etc.\n\nThe references within the Doris story seem to point every which way:\n\"Doris\" means \"of the sea\" (like the princess in her tower?), but it might\nbe (if we stretch it really far) \"d'Or\" (of Gold).\n\n\"Arline\" is an oath; \"Candy\" . . .\n\nBut \"Mason,\" ach! That points to Litho, and Tilly. And all that bundle of\nassociations. Invisible Empire stuff: Tilly had a second wife among the\nfreaks? (Well, the wife we know of was a freak.) As Tilly's heir, Smart\nhad a second wife among the freaks? (boggle)\n\nFurthermore, dogman Charlie might somehow link back into \"The Princess\"\nstory: remember how the prophesy about the child was delivered by a guy in\nwolf skins? But Charlie doesn't seem to play any part in \"The Princess\"\nstory (which even Den links to Olivia) --he delivers the Cinderella story\n(which doesn't have a prophesy).\n\nThis funny dog detail causes further contortions: Bill S. wonders if Doris\nbeing electrocuted completes the prophesy regarding Princess Elaia \"Fire\nwill win her\"; that whole bride burning thing again. Remember that Den was\nSherry's third lover. Scary, scary!\n\nIn any event, the Doris story is another case where a fairy tale (this time\na well-known European one) is being told as eye-witnessed in the 20th\ncentury, but the happy ending has been replaced with something very sad;\nbut here the threads that might tie it all to Den's life (why he cares, why\nwe should care) have been hopelessly tangled.\n\nThe tale becomes rather more like a TAT card (which are real, by the way:\nthere are thirty of them with pictures, iirc, and one card that is blank)\nthan the other cases I've expanded upon here, and the reader is both\npatient and doctor.\n\n===\n\nWell, that's all I wanted to say about fairy tales in PEACE. Next up: time\nlines (which is rather big) and the frame tale.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2000-10-26T14:30:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: PEACE: enigma Doris, Cinderella electric", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis writes:\n\n<>\n\n<>\n\nDen said that he started to tell the Tilly Tale to Bill Batton \"thirty-five\nor forty years\" (135) after hearing it at age 9, therefore he can't be older\nthan 49 on that day.\n\n<>\n\nPeople in the astral projection timeframe *can* at least *hear* things Den\nmakes up. At several points Den incorporates anachronisms into his\nconversations; e.g., giving Lois (in the 1950s) his future telephone number\nwithout an exchange prefix (162), which Ma Bell started doing in the 1960s;\nand when Sherry came to his apartment he asked her to forgive him for not\nstanding up because \"I have suffered a stroke resulting in partial paralysis\nof one leg.\" Sherry responds: \"That's all _right_.\" (202)\n\nPerhaps I should go ahead and post my timeline, such as it is, which will at\nleast give us a starting point to argue from.\n\nRoy" } ] } ] }