{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2422", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2422, "subject": "PEACE EZ Timeline", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2000-10-26T15:10:23+00:00", "last": "2000-10-27T14:28:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2000-10-26T15:10:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE EZ Timeline", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of timelines for PEACE, here is my version. It is what mantis calls\nthe \"EZ\" timeline, because it is based on accepting at face value the date\nof 1938 for the coldhouse prank, and that Den was two years out of college,\nas claimed. Den should be 24 then (not 23), because his birthday was in May\nand the prank occurred in summer. I have included a few historical dates,\njust for background. Page numbers are for the Berkley paperback.\n\nThe timeline is not as concise, in places, as I would like it to be because,\nwell, you know why; Wolfe doesn't make things easy! Few dates are given,\ntime periods tend to be expressed in round numbers, and you seldom know what\nyear you're counting from. It's easier to pick apart someone else's\ntimeline--to point out that \"this fact\" makes \"that date\" wrong--than to\ndefend your own, but I can make my case for any given date, if anyone is\ninterested. The two five-year wimp-out spans are the result of ambiguous,\n(seemingly) conflicting details. It does not cover all of the convolutions\nresulting from Den's imaginary visit(s) to Dr. Van Ness, nor mantis's\n\"Liberty\" magazine clue.\n\n****************************************\n1895 Den's mother born. (based on p.17 \"My mother would have been\ntwenty-five, I six. It was the year after Bobby Black was hurt.\")\n\n1914 May, Den born. W.W.I begins in Europe.\n\n1918 End of W.W.I.\n\n1919 May, Den, age 5, pushed Bobby Black down the stairs; fake deerskin\ntreaty painted.\n\n1920 Begin Prohibition. December, Den received scout knife.\n\n1923 Bobby Black dies.\n Den's parents go to Europe, Den goes to live with Aunt Olivia.\n July, Chinese-egg affair. Vi claims to be 26 (p.97), but may be\nfudging; I agree with mantis that she is closer to 30.\n August 3, Macafee's 41st birthday party (p.171), when Vi meets Julius\nSmart and they all tell stories. Den says that Smart was, at that time, \"at\nleast five years younger than my aunt\" (p.149). Smart's adventure with Mr.\nTilly took place the summer after he graduated college, so he was about 24\nthen. Charlie Turner's mother, Jan, (in one of the few references to larger\nworld events in the text) who was herself not \"much more than twenty\"\n(p.138), mentioned that one of her brothers had been killed in France,\nobviously in the Great War (p.143). Den was nine at the time of this party.\nHe said he started to tell Smart's story to Bill Batton \"thirty-five or\nforty years\" later (p.135). Forty years later would have been when he was 49\nand president of the company, about 1963.\n\n1924 or 1925 Vi marries J. Smart, Den's parents still overseas.\n\n1928 L. Gold leaves Breslau. (p.197)\n\n1929 circa, L. Gold meets Sally. (p.214) [1]\n\n1929 October, Stock Market crash, begin Depression.\n\n1929-1934 circa, Olivia dies. [1]\n\n1933 End Prohibition.\n\n1938(summer) Coldhouse prank , Den age 24. (p.230)\n\n1939-1945 W.W.II.\n\n1950-1953 Korean War.\n\n1954-1959 Time frame for the Lois/Gold affair. Den age 40-45. Sherry Gold is\n16. Lois is close to 35.\n\n1963 circa, Den becomes president of the company at about 49. Crazy Pete on\nisland.\n\n1974-1975 Den's death; PEACE published.\n\n[1] There is a problem here. Two events are linked in that they both\noccurred 25 years before the time of the Lois/Gold affair--Vi's death and\nGold meeting Sally--yet other factors seem to separate these two events by\nseveral years.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2000-10-26T15:52:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) re: PEACE EZ Timeline", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yay, the timeline!!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "****************************************\n1895 Den's mother born. (based on p.17 \"My mother would have been\ntwenty-five, I six. It was the year after Bobby Black was hurt.\")\n\n1914 May, Den born. W.W.I begins in Europe.\n\n1918 End of W.W.I." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1918 after May, Den, age 4 visits Dr. Black (\"Liberty\" magazine = anachronism)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1919 May, Den, age 5, pushed Bobby Black down the stairs; fake deerskin\ntreaty painted.\n\n1920 Begin Prohibition. December, Den received scout knife.\n\n1923 Bobby Black dies.\n Den's parents go to Europe, Den goes to live with Aunt Olivia.\n July, Chinese-egg affair. Vi claims to be 26 (p.97), but may be\nfudging; I agree with mantis that she is closer to 30.\n August 3, Macafee's 41st birthday party (p.171), when Vi meets Julius\nSmart and they all tell stories. Den says that Smart was, at that time, \"at\nleast five years younger than my aunt\" (p.149). Smart's adventure with Mr.\nTilly took place the summer after he graduated college, so he was about 24\nthen. Charlie Turner's mother, Jan, (in one of the few references to larger\nworld events in the text) who was herself not \"much more than twenty\"\n(p.138), mentioned that one of her brothers had been killed in France,\nobviously in the Great War (p.143). Den was nine at the time of this party.\nHe said he started to tell Smart's story to Bill Batton \"thirty-five or\nforty years\" later (p.135). Forty years later would have been when he was 49\nand president of the company, about 1963.\n\n1924 or 1925 Vi marries J. Smart, Den's parents still overseas.\n\n1928 L. Gold leaves Breslau. (p.197)\n\n1929 circa, L. Gold meets Sally. (p.214) [1]\n\n1929 October, Stock Market crash, begin Depression.\n\n1929-1934 circa, Olivia dies. [1]\n\n1933 End Prohibition.\n\n1938(summer) Coldhouse prank , Den age 24. (p.230)\n\n1939-1945 W.W.II.\n\n1950-1953 Korean War.\n\n1954-1959 Time frame for the Lois/Gold affair. Den age 40-45. Sherry Gold is\n16. Lois is close to 35.\n\n1963 circa, Den becomes president of the company at about 49. Crazy Pete on\nisland.\n\n1974-1975 Den's death; PEACE published.\n\n[1] There is a problem here. Two events are linked in that they both\noccurred 25 years before the time of the Lois/Gold affair--Vi's death and\nGold meeting Sally--yet other factors seem to separate these two events by\nseveral years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a bear of a problem, which might be wiggled through (but it sure\nain't EZ), in the following cluster:\n\nAstral visit to Dr. V as corpulant president (in first year of presidency);\nwhich is same year as Crazy Pete on his island (circa 1964); and seeing 16\nyear old Sherry in Dr. V's waiting room (where Sherry is supposed to be 16\nabout ten years earlier).\n\nHow to have Pete in the 60s and Sherry in the 50s?\n\nTo show my enthusiasm for Roy's timeline: we had long suspected that the\nDr. V astral visit was a mix of at least two realtime visits (which seemed\nthe case when the nurse comes in and tells Den he ought to be\nundressed--this seems like a \"bad splice\"); if this is true, then I found a\nnearly invisible seam of splicing when Den first goes in, before he sees\nthe doctor.\n\n1) Fat new president Den (rich man at 50) enters waiting room, sees\nMargaret Lorn (uh, that's Mrs. Price to you, bub ), Sherry Gold, Ted\nSinger (odd, but we have some stuff on him), and Abel Green (huh?).\n\n2) Margaret is reading \"Life\" magazine, but then she puts it down and goes\nin to see the doctor, never seen in a later timeframe. (This putting down\nof \"Life\" and exiting, added to the damp impressions left by her hands,\nmake me suspect that she is terminally ill and will die before Den's next\nyearly physical. IF that is true, then Den will retreat from the scene to\navoid the pain . . . )\n\n3) Nurse calls for Mrs. Price, and \"Sherry, who is sixteen now\" tells her\nthat Margaret already went in. SPLICE! (See, the discontinuity of the\nnurse's behavior is the first hint, but Sherry is sixteen =now=, [she was\nin her twenties, say, a sentence before] that's the smoking gun.)\n\n4) Doctor examines underweight (i.e., poor man at 40) Den.\n\nThis, then, is a way Den can go into the doctor's office in the 60s but\nactually only see the doctor in the 50s!\n\n===\nLiberty: the anachronistic magazine in Doctor B's office; the coin,\nshipwreck plunder, found by Den on that fateful picnic with Margaret . . .\n\nLife: the magazines in Doctor V's office . . .\n\nJust add \"the pursuit of happiness\" and by gum, you've got that ringing\nphrase from the Declaration of Independence: \"Life, Liberty, and the Pusuit\nof Happiness\"!\n===\nHey, remember that 71 year old potato farmer? I've secretly wondered if he\nis Mr. Price. You know, he lives out toward Milton, his grown sons (three\nor more?) don't want the farm, sounds like he's a widower . . .\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-10-27T14:04:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) re: PEACE EZ Timeline", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\n\nTo show my enthusiasm for Roy's timeline: we had long suspected that the\nDr. V astral visit was a mix of at least two realtime visits (which seemed\nthe case when the nurse comes in and tells Den he ought to be\nundressed--this seems like a \"bad splice\"); if this is true, then I found a\nnearly invisible seam of splicing when Den first goes in, before he sees\nthe doctor.\n\n1) Fat new president Den (rich man at 50) enters waiting room, sees\nMargaret Lorn (uh, that's Mrs. Price to you, bub ), Sherry Gold, Ted\nSinger (odd, but we have some stuff on him), and Abel Green (huh?).\n\n2) Margaret is reading \"Life\" magazine, but then she puts it down and goes\nin to see the doctor, never seen in a later timeframe. (This putting down\nof \"Life\" and exiting, added to the damp impressions left by her hands,\nmake me suspect that she is terminally ill and will die before Den's next\nyearly physical. IF that is true, then Den will retreat from the scene to\navoid the pain . . . )\n\n3) Nurse calls for Mrs. Price, and \"Sherry, who is sixteen now\" tells her\nthat Margaret already went in. SPLICE! (See, the discontinuity of the\nnurse's behavior is the first hint, but Sherry is sixteen =now=, [she was\nin her twenties, say, a sentence before] that's the smoking gun.)\n\n4) Doctor examines underweight (i.e., poor man at 40) Den.\n\nThis, then, is a way Den can go into the doctor's office in the 60s but\nactually only see the doctor in the 50s!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we'd need at least one more splice, maybe two. On the page\nafter Weer is underweight, we have this dialogue:\n\n \"There's not a man in my plant I'd talk to the way you talk to every\npatient you've got.\"\n \"But I can't fire my patients, Mr. Weer.\"\n\nThe clear implication is that Weer is president at this point; at any\nrate, he's not the poor 40-year-old. Then a couple pages later we have\nthe dialogue putting Weer's age as in the early 40s. I don't know if we\ncan push Weer's presidency back that far; if not, another splice.\n\nWhile looking this up, I noticed another sentence: \"There is (as a\nmatter of fact) a whole pile of _Lifes_ before me, and I play the old\ngame of trying to arrange them chronologically without looking at the\ndates, and lose.\" (3) If that isn't Wolfe going nyah-nyah-nyah to his\nreaders, I don't know what is. (And I won't even go into the\nimplications of reincarnation in the first half of the sentence!)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2000-10-27T14:28:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) re: PEACE EZ Timeline", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \"There's not a man in my plant I'd talk to the way you talk to every\npatient you've got.\"\n \"But I can't fire my patients, Mr. Weer.\"\n \nThe clear implication is that Weer is president at this point; at any\nrate, he's not the poor 40-year-old. Then a couple pages later we have\nthe dialogue putting Weer's age as in the early 40s. I don't know if we\ncan push Weer's presidency back that far; if not, another splice.\n\nWhile looking this up, I noticed another sentence: \"There is (as a\nmatter of fact) a whole pile of _Lifes_ before me, and I play the old\ngame of trying to arrange them chronologically without looking at the\ndates, and lose.\" (3) If that isn't Wolfe going nyah-nyah-nyah to his\nreaders, I don't know what is. (And I won't even go into the\nimplications of reincarnation in the first half of the sentence!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These two quotes strengthen Dan'l's hypothesis about the Doctors being\nguides in the afterlife as well. A pile of lives in the waiting room,\nindeed. Hmmm... Which brings in a point: perhaps there's something\nless solipsistic about this than we think. At various times it seems\nthat Den's afterlife and old age are appearing as anachronisms in his\nmemories of earlier times, in his interactions with other characters.\nWhat if, since our time-frame implies that ALL of the residents of\nCassionville are long dead, these others are not simply recreations of\nthe past, or spirits called from the vasty deep, but others\nexperiencing the same kind of afterlife as Den? I think WEER sees\nthem to some extent as simply memories, ghosts, or shadows, but what\nif that is a reflection of his isolation rather than the actual state\nof things? This fits nicely with the lich's implication that Den and\nGold are the spirits; perhaps to Miss Birkhead, Den is simply a\ncharacter in her TAT-guided \"purgatory.\" This sharing of stories\nmakes more sense thematically than to have the characters simply be\ndredged up by Den's dead soul--even Den states openly that this is not\nhis story. He calls Julian Smart, of all people, the central\ncharacter." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] } ] }