{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2452", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2452, "subject": "PEACE: \"facts\"", "messages": 4, "voices": 2, "first": "2000-11-10T01:24:49+00:00", "last": "2000-11-18T03:06:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2000-11-10T01:24:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: \"facts\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For background about what mantis and I have been struggling with, and for\nthose who may be interested, and/or want to make a stab at establishing\ntheir own timeline for PEACE, here is a collection of \"facts\" from the text\nwhich must be incorporated. Page numbers are for the Berkley paperback.\n\nYEH is mantis's shorthand for Year of the Egg Hunt; Golden Year refers to\nthe year of the Gold Hunt with Lois, and of Den's dealings with the Gold\nfamily.\n\n************************\nSolid facts regarding dates and ages:\n\nDen was 5 when deerskin painted and Bobby Black injured. (4,72)\n\nBobby Black died 4 years after injury, in YEH, and Den's parents went to\nEurope about June; Den went to live with Olivia. (72,39)\n\nDen was 9 in YEH. (72)\n\nDen was president by age 50, but was not at 40. (201)\n\nSherry was 16 in Golden Year. (202)\n\nWWI was over before YEH (Jan's brother in Tilly tale). (143)\n\nDen saw toy soldiers at Macafee's store dating to WWI in YEH. (67)\n\nDen was 60+ at time of Dan French/reporter tour. (233)\n\n1928 Gold leaves Breslau. (197)\n\n1938 coldhouse prank. (230)\n\n1963-64 circa, Crazy Pete on island. (Based on \"The Changeling\")\n\n----------------\n\nLess solid facts:\n\nI have established (at least to my satisfaction) from various clues that Den\ncould not have been born before 1910 (toy soldiers in YEH), or later than\n1920 (Depression in future of YEH).\n\nDen made his astral visit (AV) to Dr. Black to a time when he was 4. There\nhe saw a \"Liberty\" magazine, which began publishing in 1920. (153)\n\nDen was two years out of college in 1938. (233)\n\nDen could not have met Lois and the Golds before 1953 (1928 + Louis met\nSally 25 years before Golden Year). (214)\n\nDeerskin painted \"about\" 40 years before Golden Year. (164)\n\nOlivia died 25 years before Golden Year. (158)\n\nDen owned Macafee's store \"about\" 40 years after YEH. (56)\n\nDen, while president, started to tell Tilly tale to Bill Batton \"thirty-five\nor forty years\" after YEH. (135)\n\nDen, age 9-11, searched for arrowheads with Vi and Peacock \"30 years or a\nbit more\" before Golden Year. (190)\n\nDan French presented Den a gift for Den's 50th birthday. (79)\n\nMrs. Helen Birkhead Tyler died the same day as the Dan French/reporter tour.\n(243)\n\n---------------\n\nFuzzy facts:\n\nDen was \"twenty-five or so\" in his Chinese Garden dream. (65)\n\nAt time of astral visit (AV) to Dr. Van Ness: Crazy Pete was on island (46);\nDen had been president for less than a year (stopped carrying knife \"months\nago\" (12); Den had a large garden (15) (implying a large house, which\nimplies that the house he is living in at time of AV could not be the\nmuseum-roomed house [and which Wolfe is reported to have denied existed in\nthe first place] he was reviewing the plans for, while he was still living\nin his old apartment yet obviously was then president (35-36), because such\na house could not have been built in the time available).\n\nBill Batton, Charlie Turner, and Eleanor Bold Porter visits all happened on\nthe same day (193) (which means that Den could be no more than 49, per\nBatton above).\n\nDen would have to be 40-45 years old at time of AV to Dr. V, based on the\ndoctor's judgements (14), which conflicts with several of the above \"facts\"\n(Den too young to be president at that age). This suggests that more than\none AV to Dr. V is being conflated.\n********************\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-11-12T23:48:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: \"facts\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nFor background about what mantis and I have been struggling with, and for\nthose who may be interested, and/or want to make a stab at establishing\ntheir own timeline for PEACE, here is a collection of \"facts\" from the text\nwhich must be incorporated. Page numbers are for the Berkley paperback." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for posting this, Roy! I like references . I also think it's\na good thing, with so many conjectures floating around, to state the\nevidence (or lack of evidence) upon which they rest, as explicitly as\npossible.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-11-17T17:45:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: \"facts\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nAt time of astral visit (AV) to Dr. Van Ness:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Den had been president for less than a year (stopped carrying knife \"months\nago\" (12)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this is correct. On p. 12 (Harper & Row) Weer says: \"I\nbegin to go through my pants pockets looking for the knife; it is not\nthere, and I remember that I have stopped carrying it months ago because\nI went to the office every day and, because I no longer worked in the\nlab, never used it; and that it wore the fabric of my trousers where its\nhard bolsters pressed at the corners of my right hip pocket, so that\nthey wore out first there.\" But on p. 17 Weer refers to \"those hard\nbolsters which, when my life was over and I had come to my desk, wore\nout so many gabardines and serges\". Together, these imply that while\nWeer stopped carrying the knife less than a year before the AV, \nWeer did not stop carrying the knife as soon as he became president, but\ncontinued to carry it long enough for it to wear out \"so many\" suits (I\nwould imagine this would be at least a year).\n\nBut there's another possibility as well. Immediately the first quote,\nWeer goes on: \"I stand, holding on to the mantel with one hand, and look\nagain: it is not there. The rain patters down outside.\" Here, Weer\nseems to be back in his \"museum house.\" This raises the possibility\nthat the first search for the knife took place in museum house as well,\nand not in Van Ness's office, in which case \"months ago\" would refer to\nWeer's present (or what he imagines his \"present\" to be) and not to the\ntime of the AV. I think the first reading I gave is more natural,\nthough, at least in isolation (how either would fit in with the rest of\nthe timeline I don't know).\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2000-11-18T03:06:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: PEACE: \"facts\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam quoted and wrote:\nAt time of astral visit (AV) to Dr. Van Ness:[snip]\nDen had been president for less than a year (stopped carrying knife\n\"months ago\" (12)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "<>\n________________\n\nYou may be right. OTOH, it depends. We know that Weer carried the knife\nfor many years; he showed it to Lois during the Gold Hunt year (164). So, he\nknew the effects of carrying it on his pants pockets long before he became\npresident. It's unclear what type of clothing he wore as an engineer, but I\ninfer that he wore suits then as well, because he mentions putting on his\ncoat (159), and the weather was not cold. He also worked at a desk then, in\nan office (159). I concluded from the passages you quoted that he continued\nto carry the knife while an engineer, despite the adverse effects on his\npockets, because he occasionally had use for it; once he became president he\nno longer had a use for it, so he stopped carrying it.\n\nOf course, this puts an entirely different spin on the usual interpretation\nof the often cited \"when my life was over and I came to my desk\" quote. Most\npeople assume that to refer to when he gave up his 'useful' job as a\nmiddle-aged \"unimportant employee\" (148) and became president. In light of\nmantis's \"ben Yahya and the Marid\" link to the coldhouse prank, tying young\nWeer to decades of selfless service in a dead-end job, it's possible that\nwhen he bound himself to Smart was the occasion when his \"life was over\".\nThat is \"what went wrong\" with the plans he had for his life, plans made\nbefore he was twenty (201). He wasn't going to go anywhere with that job,\nand didn't, until Smart's death released him.\n\nRoy" } ] } ] }