Subject: (urth) PEACE: "facts"

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 01:24:49 +0000

For background about what mantis and I have been struggling with, and for
those who may be interested, and/or want to make a stab at establishing
their own timeline for PEACE, here is a collection of "facts" from the text
which must be incorporated. Page numbers are for the Berkley paperback.

YEH is mantis's shorthand for Year of the Egg Hunt; Golden Year refers to
the year of the Gold Hunt with Lois, and of Den's dealings with the Gold
family.

************************
Solid facts regarding dates and ages:

Den was 5 when deerskin painted and Bobby Black injured. (4,72)

Bobby Black died 4 years after injury, in YEH, and Den's parents went to
Europe about June; Den went to live with Olivia. (72,39)

Den was 9 in YEH. (72)

Den was president by age 50, but was not at 40. (201)

Sherry was 16 in Golden Year. (202)

WWI was over before YEH (Jan's brother in Tilly tale). (143)

Den saw toy soldiers at Macafee's store dating to WWI in YEH. (67)

Den was 60+ at time of Dan French/reporter tour. (233)

1928 Gold leaves Breslau. (197)

1938 coldhouse prank. (230)

1963-64 circa, Crazy Pete on island. (Based on "The Changeling")

----------------

Less solid facts:

I have established (at least to my satisfaction) from various clues that Den
could not have been born before 1910 (toy soldiers in YEH), or later than
1920 (Depression in future of YEH).

Den made his astral visit (AV) to Dr. Black to a time when he was 4. There
he saw a "Liberty" magazine, which began publishing in 1920. (153)

Den was two years out of college in 1938. (233)

Den could not have met Lois and the Golds before 1953 (1928 + Louis met
Sally 25 years before Golden Year). (214)

Deerskin painted "about" 40 years before Golden Year. (164)

Olivia died 25 years before Golden Year. (158)

Den owned Macafee's store "about" 40 years after YEH. (56)

Den, while president, started to tell Tilly tale to Bill Batton "thirty-five
or forty years" after YEH. (135)

Den, age 9-11, searched for arrowheads with Vi and Peacock "30 years or a
bit more" before Golden Year. (190)

Dan French presented Den a gift for Den's 50th birthday. (79)

Mrs. Helen Birkhead Tyler died the same day as the Dan French/reporter tour.
(243)

---------------

Fuzzy facts:

Den was "twenty-five or so" in his Chinese Garden dream. (65)

At time of astral visit (AV) to Dr. Van Ness: Crazy Pete was on island (46);
Den had been president for less than a year (stopped carrying knife "months
ago" (12); Den had a large garden (15) (implying a large house, which
implies that the house he is living in at time of AV could not be the
museum-roomed house [and which Wolfe is reported to have denied existed in
the first place] he was reviewing the plans for, while he was still living
in his old apartment yet obviously was then president (35-36), because such
a house could not have been built in the time available).

Bill Batton, Charlie Turner, and Eleanor Bold Porter visits all happened on
the same day (193) (which means that Den could be no more than 49, per
Batton above).

Den would have to be 40-45 years old at time of AV to Dr. V, based on the
doctor's judgements (14), which conflicts with several of the above "facts"
(Den too young to be president at that age). This suggests that more than
one AV to Dr. V is being conflated.
********************

Roy

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 23:48:51 +0000

> which must be incorporated. Page numbers are for the Berkley paperback.

Thanks for posting this, Roy!  I like references <g>.  I also think it's
a good thing, with so many conjectures floating around, to state the
evidence (or lack of evidence) upon which they rest, as explicitly as
possible.

--Adam

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 17:45:51 +0000

Roy C. Lackey wrote:

> At time of astral visit (AV) to Dr. Van Ness:
[snip]
> ago" (12)

I don't think this is correct.  On p. 12 (Harper & Row) Weer says: "I
begin to go through my pants pockets looking for the knife; it is not
there, and I remember that I have stopped carrying it months ago because
I went to the office every day and, because I no longer worked in the
lab, never used it; and that it wore the fabric of my trousers where its
hard bolsters pressed at the corners of my right hip pocket, so that
they wore out first there."  But on p. 17 Weer refers to "those hard
bolsters which, when my life was over and I had come to my desk, wore
out so many gabardines and serges".  Together, these imply that while
Weer stopped carrying the knife less than a year before the AV, 
Weer did not stop carrying the knife as soon as he became president, but
continued to carry it long enough for it to wear out "so many" suits (I
would imagine this would be at least a year).

But there's another possibility as well.  Immediately the first quote,
Weer goes on: "I stand, holding on to the mantel with one hand, and look
again: it is not there.  The rain patters down outside."  Here, Weer
seems to be back in his "museum house."  This raises the possibility
that the first search for the knife took place in museum house as well,
and not in Van Ness's office, in which case "months ago" would refer to
Weer's present (or what he imagines his "present" to be) and not to the
time of the AV.  I think the first reading I gave is more natural,
though, at least in isolation (how either would fit in with the rest of
the timeline I don't know).

--Adam

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 03:06:09 +0000

Adam quoted and wrote:
> At time of astral visit (AV) to Dr. Van Ness:[snip]
> Den had been president for less than a year (stopped carrying knife
>"months ago" (12)

<<I don't think this is correct.  On p. 12 (Harper & Row) Weer says: "I
would imagine this would be at least a year).>>
________________

You may be right. OTOH, it depends. <g> We know that Weer carried the knife
for many years; he showed it to Lois during the Gold Hunt year (164). So, he
knew the effects of carrying it on his pants pockets long before he became
president. It's unclear what type of clothing he wore as an engineer, but I
infer that he wore suits then as well, because he mentions putting on his
coat (159), and the weather was not cold. He also worked at a desk then, in
an office (159). I concluded from the passages you quoted that he continued
to carry the knife while an engineer, despite the adverse effects on his
pockets, because he occasionally had use for it; once he became president he
no longer had a use for it, so he stopped carrying it.

Of course, this puts an entirely different spin on the usual interpretation
of the often cited "when my life was over and I came to my desk" quote. Most
people assume that to refer to when he gave up his 'useful' job as a
middle-aged "unimportant employee" (148) and became president. In light of
mantis's "ben Yahya and the Marid" link to the coldhouse prank, tying young
Weer to decades of selfless service in a dead-end job, it's possible that
when he bound himself to Smart was the occasion when his "life was over".
That is "what went wrong" with the plans he had for his life, plans made
before he was twenty (201). He wasn't going to go anywhere with that job,
and didn't, until Smart's death released him.

Roy