{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2502", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2502, "subject": "PEACE: The visit to Van Ness", "messages": 6, "voices": 2, "first": "2000-12-10T11:36:36+00:00", "last": "2000-12-15T19:31:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-12-10T11:36:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: The visit to Van Ness", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wrote \"Weer's narration of the start of the visit has, to me, a\ndreamlike quality\". For the sake of completeness, I might as well state\nwhat makes me say this.\n\n1. At the starts of the \"visiting the doctor\" segment, Weer says: \"It\nis important, going to the doctor. Even in some mad way more important\nthan a board meeting.\" (3, H & R). What is \"mad\" about it?\n\n2. Later in this paragraph we have: \"Margaret tosses down her copy and\ngoes in to see the doctor, and I know, somehow, that this is a mark of\ncontempt.\" (3) This may mean no more than what it says, that Weer knows\nthat Margaret is contemptuous but can't verbalize why. But it is\nreminiscent of that dream-thinking when you \"know,\" with no rational\nbasis, that something signifies something.\n\n3. Shortly afterwards, there is this exchange between Weer and the\nnurse:\n\n \"Please, I've got to see the doctor. I'm dying.\"\n The nurse: \"All these people are ahead of you.\"\n Ted Singer and Sherry Gold are both obviously much younger than I,\nbut there is no use arguing with that kind of thing. (4)\n\nWeer is uncharacteristically obtuse here (I can't recall any similar\ninstances).\n\nAll these lapses in logic suggest to me that Weer is not fully in\ncommand of his thoughts in this passage.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-12-11T08:04:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: The visit to Van Ness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Adam Stephanides wrote:\n3. Shortly afterwards, there is this exchange between Weer and the\nnurse:\n\n \"Please, I've got to see the doctor. I'm dying.\"\n The nurse: \"All these people are ahead of you.\"\n Ted Singer and Sherry Gold are both obviously much younger than I,\nbut there is no use arguing with that kind of thing. (4)\n\nWeer is uncharacteristically obtuse here (I can't recall any similar\ninstances)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Weer says he's dying and the nurse says the others are ahead of him,\nhe takes her to mean (perhaps knowing she doesn't really mean) that Ted\nand Sherry are closer to dying than he is, although, being younger, they\nare probably further away from dying than Weer.\n\nPossible ironies: Weer is closer to death than he thinks. Or perhaps it's\nbeen a very long time since he died, making him further from death (in the\nother direction) than Ted and Sherry.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-12-11T21:10:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: The visit to Van Ness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\n\nOn Sun, 10 Dec 2000, Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "3. Shortly afterwards, there is this exchange between Weer and the\nnurse:\n\n \"Please, I've got to see the doctor. I'm dying.\"\n The nurse: \"All these people are ahead of you.\"\n Ted Singer and Sherry Gold are both obviously much younger than I,\nbut there is no use arguing with that kind of thing. (4)\n\nWeer is uncharacteristically obtuse here (I can't recall any similar\ninstances)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Weer says he's dying and the nurse says the others are ahead of him,\nhe takes her to mean (perhaps knowing she doesn't really mean) that Ted\nand Sherry are closer to dying than he is, although, being younger, they\nare probably further away from dying than Weer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was aware of that. But that obviously isn't what the nurse meant, and\nI read Weer's comment as indicating that he doesn't know that's not what\nshe meant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThis seemed fairly clear to me. \"Ahead of you\": They died first." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That happens to be true, but it can't be what the nurse meant, since the\nother characters in the doctors' visits don't know the \"future\" (nor\ndoes it fit the context). Nor is it what Weer thinks she meant,\notherwise his comment makes no sense.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-12-11T21:19:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re:PEACE: The visit to Van Ness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nI agree about the \"dreamlike quality\", but I think an even more telling\ndetail in the passage is that when Weer enters the waiting room he sees five\npeople, one of whom is himself. This brings to mind the common phenomenon in\ndreams of being both observer and participant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had missed that. The passage reads: \"At one-thirty I enter the\nCassionsville and Kanakessee Valley Bank Building through bronze doors,\nmore bronze doors for the elevator, and a glass door for the waiting\nroom where five people sit listening to Glinka's _A Life for the Czar_. \nThey are Margaret Lorn, Ted Singer, Abel Green, and Sherry Gold. And\nme.\" (3) I'm not sure whether I'd read it as you do, or read Weer as\njumping ahead in his narrative between the words \"and a glass door\" and\n\"where five people sit listening...,\" so that the end of the sentence\nrefers to after he enters and sits down. (If it read \"into the waiting\nroom\" instead of \"for the waiting room,\" I would be more certain of your\nreading.) But either way, it's another glitch in his narration of his\nvisit.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2000-12-12T22:15:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: The visit to Van Ness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Adam Stephanides wrote:\n \"Please, I've got to see the doctor. I'm dying.\"\n The nurse: \"All these people are ahead of you.\"\n Ted Singer and Sherry Gold are both obviously much younger than I,\nbut there is no use arguing with that kind of thing. (4)\n\nWeer is uncharacteristically obtuse here (I can't recall any similar\ninstances)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was aware of that. But that obviously isn't what the nurse meant, and\nI read Weer's comment as indicating that he doesn't know that's not what\nshe meant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a joke. It's just not clear whether Weer is making the joke or Wolfe\nis. \n\nOr Weer could be just complaining to himself that he, as a dying old\nman, should get priority over these hardy youngsters (but there's no use\ntrying to get people to respect old age these days...)\n\nOr Weer's so preocupied with dying he really takes the nurse to mean the\nothers are dying ahead of him).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2000-12-15T19:31:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: The visit to Van Ness", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Straight wrote:\n\nOn Mon, 11 Dec 2000, Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " \"Please, I've got to see the doctor. I'm dying.\"\n The nurse: \"All these people are ahead of you.\"\n Ted Singer and Sherry Gold are both obviously much younger than I,\nbut there is no use arguing with that kind of thing. (4)\n\nWeer is uncharacteristically obtuse here (I can't recall any similar\ninstances)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a joke. It's just not clear whether Weer is making the joke or Wolfe\nis.\n\nOr Weer could be just complaining to himself that he, as a dying old\nman, should get priority over these hardy youngsters (but there's no use\ntrying to get people to respect old age these days...)\n\nOr Weer's so preocupied with dying he really takes the nurse to mean the\nothers are dying ahead of him)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Without wishing to belabor this question, I'll just say that I don't\nfind any of these readings more plausible than my own (that Weer's\nresponse is a sign that he is not fully in control of his thoughts). \nIn particular, elsewhere in his narrative Weer does not seem to be\npreoccupied with dying; and he is only \"visiting\" the doctor to find out\nif he should exercise, not because he believes himself about to keel\nover.\n\nIt's a weird exchange anyway. Why doesn't the nurse react when a\npatient tells her that he's dying and he has to see the doctor? Why\ndoesn't Weer protest \"You don't understand, I'm _dying_,\" instead of\njust sitting down again, if he really believes he is dying?\n\nThere are other strange things about the \"doctor's visit.\" Over a month" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ago, Roy Lackey wrote:\nIf, in real life, Weer\never had occasion to undergo psychological testing by Van Ness (how many MDs\nhave such props to hand?)--then when, why? If he never took such tests,\nwhence his familiarity with them, and why did he mention them in his\naccount, especially as they seem to have been administered in consequence of\nan imaginary visit to a dead doctor for a stroke he hadn't had yet? Are\nimaginary people always so judgemental?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The question about how Weer is familiar with personality tests isn't too\nhard--he could easily have learned about them in the corporation, either\nas part of his executive responsibilities or from having had them\nadministered to him--but the other questions are good ones.\n\nWe may also ask why he bothers with the visit in the first place. He\nbelieves that the visit is all in his head, in which case the doctor\ncan't tell him anything he doesn't know. This isn't too bad in itself;\nhe could be employing a variant of the \"memory palace,\" in which his\nknowledge of strokes is embodied in \"Van Ness.\" But he also knows that\nit really doesn't make much difference whether or not he exercises, and\nhe also knows that he won't take Van Ness's advice, whatever it is, as\ndefinitive (3). So, as said above, why bother? It's not too\nimplausible to see this as just a quirk on Weer's part, but it is odd.\n\nIt's also odd that two of the three women whom Weer has been involved\nwith that we know of are in the waiting room when he arrives. Of\ncourse, this isn't a problem if we take the view, as I suggested, that\nthe \"visit\" is not modeled upon a real-life visit.\n\nFinally, what does it mean that the book ends with Weer having an\nappointment to hear Van Ness's \"conclusions,' but not having kept that\nappointment; and, the nailed-down reminder slip suggests, unable to\nkeep it?\n\nAll these may, of course, be explainable separately, or not at all. But\ntogether they suggest a possible reading. I put this forth not as\ncorrect, or even necessarily as plausible (I can see plenty of\nobjections to it), but as food for thought.\n\nVan Ness is an independent entity, and not a creation of Weer's mind, as\nDan'l argues. But he is not a psychopomp, but a judge. Weer only\nthinks he is consulting him on his own initiative; in reality he is\ninfluenced to consult him, possibly by the same force that prevents him\nfrom thinking about consulting a real doctor). The \"doctor\" shows him\nthe TAT cards to elicit Weer's \"testimony\" as a defendant. The reason\nWeer cannot make his appointment to hear Van Ness's conclusions is that\nhe has been condemned in absentia, and Olivia's \"'Den, darling, are you\nawake in there?'\" signals the beginning of his sentence: the \"peace\" of\nannhiliation (these words are the signal to go to sleep, not to wake up:\np. 65, H & R).\n\nIf you insist on seeing Van Ness as a spirit, I think this reading works\nbetter than the psychopomp-Purgatory reading.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }