{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2531", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2531, "subject": "Castleview Haloo", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-01-05T12:47:34+00:00", "last": "2001-01-11T18:07:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-01-05T12:47:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Castleview Haloo", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speccahtickled Bear done wrote:\nAt 10:55 2001-01-04 -0800, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay... Having now reread CASTLEVIEW under somewhat better\ncircumstances (i.e., at home, not lacking massive quantities\nof sleep, etc.), I'm still puzzled by the puzzlement. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So what's the problem here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does that mean you can answer all, many, or even some of the\nlong list of questions I posted a few weeks ago?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The short answer is \"no.\" Unfortunately, you left out my very \nimportant caveat. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote:\nThe only major puzzles I think left by the book's ending are\nwhether certain characters are mortal or fay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect that if we could decide clearly who was and who was not \nFay, the rest would fall into place -- at least, as much as you \ncan expect things to do with Faerie to fall into place. \n\nMany of your questions either fall into that category or would most \nlikely be answered as a side effect of answering one or more \nquestions in the category. I guess I'm just comfortable with the \nuncertainties the book leaves -- I don't see them as puzzles so \nmuch as a direct result of the slippery nature of Faerie.\n\nThe answer to the big question (\"what's going on here?\") seems to \nbe: \"Two factions of faerie-folk are fighting over something. At \nleast a part of the subject of the fight is Morgan's wish to bring \nher brother (who is [in some sense] Shields) back to dwell in her \ncastle.\" (Morgan's brother is, traditionally, Arthur; nobody ever \nseems to notice that if Morgan is fay, Arthur ought to be also.)\n\nOne can ask the subsidiary question as to which faction a given \nfaerie belongs to, but the question disintegrates: faeries are, \nby nature (or at least by tradition), treacherous; I suspect that \nthey change sides much as they change clothes, and perhaps more \noften.\n\nGiven all that, I'll attack at least some of those questions..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is Shields really killed? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Flip answer -- \"Yes, but he got better.\"\n\nSerious answer: Define \"killed\" so as to give the question \nmeaning. In particular, define it as it pertains to a native \nof Faerie -- which Shields, in some sense, is. For that \nmatter, define the word \"really\" (or \"real\") in that context..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But what about the rest of the details? Who is Liam Fee,\nand why does he want to buy the house? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no trouble saying, \"Yeah, _he's_ fay.\" The questions then \nbecome: \"Which side is Liam Fee on when he wants to buy the house?\nAnd why does he want to?\"\n\nI suspect that he doesn't actually want to buy the house --\nI think that's a sort of reverse-Maguffin, something which\nhas no real importance at all, but which a character (Liam\nFee) uses to prod others into behaving the way he wants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is he really an alien or monster, as he appears to be when\nHwan Lee stuns him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is another question that needs to be taken into a \ndifferent context -- again, the word \"really\" is perhaps not \nmeaningful here. I mean: where do you get the idea that a faerie \n_has_ a single, \"real\" form? We do not see the fair folk; we see \nwhat they want us to see. \n\nI don't know whether he's _an_ alien or _a_ monster, but he's \ncertainly alien and monstrous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are Jose Balanco and Hwan (which sounds a lot like \"Juan\")\nLee the equivalent of Balin and Balan? There's the names\nand the killing of a brother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say that, yes, there is a definite and deliberate resonance \nthere. (Which raises the most interesting question of who reflects \nthe Fisher-king role in this particular resonance-pattern ...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who is Lucie? Why is she pretending to be French, or if\nshe really is French, why does she sound American for a\nwhile to Sally? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another faerie, I'm pretty sure. I'm not clear at this point which \nside she's on at any given moment. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we agree that she appears and disappears a lot, and doesn't \nshow up in mirrors? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She's afraid of water too, like a cat, and her name, Carabas, \nis from Puss in Boots. I can't buy Robert Borski's theory \nthat she is the same as G. Gordon Kitty, though!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined to agree - though come to think of it, I don't recall \nthat we ever see them together 8*)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "G. Gordon Kitty is great fun, and one of the most\nexplicable figures. I take him to be just what he seems,\nJudy's cat transformed by the magic of the fairy realm." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is hardly a \"just what he seems\" kind of answer! I came away\nwith the idea that this is as much his \"real\" form as the one he \nshows at home: nothing certain, but suggestive enough to entertain \nthe idea that he's a Faerie-cat that Judy has (unknowingly[? but \nwho knows what, in her so-imaginative heart, Judy really knows?]) \ntaken in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's all the business with the organ playing in the museum?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cool effects? \n\nSorry, flip again. Try it this way:, who took (blanking on his \nname) from the museum and why, and why'd they let him go -- \nespecially out near-or-at the camp? \n\nIs he fay? (And on which side?) I'm not sure. But clearly at least \nsome of the characters who want us (or who want the residents of the \ntown, or whom Wolfe wants us) to think they're mortal aren't, and \nhe's not a bad candidate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are hints in it of trolls, which tells us who took the\ndiary, but why? Why play the music?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a \"damifino\" question. I forgot about it completely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Viviane Morgan appears to be Vivian *and* Morgan le Fay.\nHow does she manage to be both?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-- and the Lady of the Lake, who is not _always_ the same \nperson as Viviane. I gather that \"identity\" is not the same \nthing to faeries as it is to us -- you may be me tomorrow?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Sally really take up with von Madadh at the end?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It kind of looks that way. I wouldn't want to stake money on \nit, though; the story ends with no real sense of what is going \nto happen afterwards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does Mercedes feel about that, if he killed her father?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did he? Are you sure? More important: Is Mercedes sure? Do we\nsee Mercedes seeing what Mercedes sees? What does she see and\nwhen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Von Madadh is King of Hounds or Wolves, and he's the dog\nthat Sally thinks is Rexy. But what's he doing? Is he just\nthere to lure everyone to the Castle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect he's someone who's on neither side. I'm pretty darned \nsure that he has to do with the Wild Hunt. (H'mmm. Does the horned \nking show up again after Von Madadh appears... Is Von Madadh... \nAh, never mind...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is all the trouble at Meadow Grass to do with the attempts\nto kill Wrangler? It all seems rather indirect if so. If\nnot, what is it about?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lucie, at least. And Shields, once he shows up there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is Sally doing in the wagon with the wild horsemen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above re: Von Madadh.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "2001-01-11T18:07:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Castleview Haloo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:47 2001-01-05 -0800, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSpeccahtickled Bear done wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 10:55 2001-01-04 -0800, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Okay... Having now reread CASTLEVIEW under somewhat better\ncircumstances (i.e., at home, not lacking massive quantities\nof sleep, etc.), I'm still puzzled by the puzzlement. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "So what's the problem here?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does that mean you can answer all, many, or even some of the\nlong list of questions I posted a few weeks ago?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The short answer is \"no.\" Unfortunately, you left out my very \nimportant caveat. \n\nI wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The only major puzzles I think left by the book's ending are\nwhether certain characters are mortal or fay." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, I didn't realize how many of the questions you were\ngoing to be able to relate to this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect that if we could decide clearly who was and who was not \nFay, the rest would fall into place -- at least, as much as you \ncan expect things to do with Faerie to fall into place. \n\nMany of your questions either fall into that category or would most \nlikely be answered as a side effect of answering one or more \nquestions in the category. I guess I'm just comfortable with the \nuncertainties the book leaves -- I don't see them as puzzles so \nmuch as a direct result of the slippery nature of Faerie.\n\nThe answer to the big question (\"what's going on here?\") seems to \nbe: \"Two factions of faerie-folk are fighting over something. At \nleast a part of the subject of the fight is Morgan's wish to bring \nher brother (who is [in some sense] Shields) back to dwell in her \ncastle.\" (Morgan's brother is, traditionally, Arthur; nobody ever \nseems to notice that if Morgan is fay, Arthur ought to be also.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see what you mean - but is she his full sister, or just half?\nMight she be half faerie and half human?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One can ask the subsidiary question as to which faction a given \nfaerie belongs to, but the question disintegrates: faeries are, \nby nature (or at least by tradition), treacherous; I suspect that \nthey change sides much as they change clothes, and perhaps more \noften.\n\nGiven all that, I'll attack at least some of those questions..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is Shields really killed? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Flip answer -- \"Yes, but he got better.\"\n\nSerious answer: Define \"killed\" so as to give the question \nmeaning. In particular, define it as it pertains to a native \nof Faerie -- which Shields, in some sense, is. For that \nmatter, define the word \"really\" (or \"real\") in that context..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But what about the rest of the details? Who is Liam Fee,\nand why does he want to buy the house? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no trouble saying, \"Yeah, _he's_ fay.\" The questions then \nbecome: \"Which side is Liam Fee on when he wants to buy the house?\nAnd why does he want to?\"\n\nI suspect that he doesn't actually want to buy the house --\nI think that's a sort of reverse-Maguffin, something which\nhas no real importance at all, but which a character (Liam\nFee) uses to prod others into behaving the way he wants." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now there's a notion. I'm trying to think of particular instances,\nbut I suspect I would have to read the book again.\n\nHmm - arguing against that is the fact that he kills Tom\nbecause he decides not to sell. The Roberts family seem to\nhave close connections with the Castle, and the house itself\nhas a tower like a castle. I wonder how long it has been there ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is he really an alien or monster, as he appears to be when\nHwan Lee stuns him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is another question that needs to be taken into a \ndifferent context -- again, the word \"really\" is perhaps not \nmeaningful here. I mean: where do you get the idea that a faerie \n_has_ a single, \"real\" form? We do not see the fair folk; we see \nwhat they want us to see. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's just it; Fee is off his guard, stunned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know whether he's _an_ alien or _a_ monster, but he's \ncertainly alien and monstrous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, and I'm sure Tony is right in suggesting that aliens\nand fairies are the same thing. [As an aside, I think this is\nliterally true in the real world, too - they even *look* like\nelves. Actual extraterrestrial life forms excluded, of course.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are Jose Balanco and Hwan (which sounds a lot like \"Juan\")\nLee the equivalent of Balin and Balan? There's the names\nand the killing of a brother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would say that, yes, there is a definite and deliberate resonance \nthere. (Which raises the most interesting question of who reflects \nthe Fisher-king role in this particular resonance-pattern ...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who is Lucie? Why is she pretending to be French, or if\nshe really is French, why does she sound American for a\nwhile to Sally? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another faerie, I'm pretty sure. I'm not clear at this point which \nside she's on at any given moment. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that faeries are notoriously unreliable, but I don't think\nwe need to assume they change sides in the story unless there's\nsome textual evidence for it. Of course, I haven't been looking for\nit. Anyway, she's pretty clearly one of Fee's lot. He appears\ngenuinely upset at her death. I don't think he's making that up,\nbecause no-one knows there is any connection between them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do we agree that she appears and disappears a lot, and doesn't \nshow up in mirrors? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She's afraid of water too, like a cat, and her name, Carabas, \nis from Puss in Boots. I can't buy Robert Borski's theory \nthat she is the same as G. Gordon Kitty, though!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm inclined to agree - though come to think of it, I don't recall \nthat we ever see them together 8*)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "G. Gordon Kitty is great fun, and one of the most\nexplicable figures. I take him to be just what he seems,\nJudy's cat transformed by the magic of the fairy realm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is hardly a \"just what he seems\" kind of answer!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I came away\nwith the idea that this is as much his \"real\" form as the one he \nshows at home:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. He has history, too, in the form of family heirlooms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "nothing certain, but suggestive enough to entertain \nthe idea that he's a Faerie-cat that Judy has (unknowingly[? but \nwho knows what, in her so-imaginative heart, Judy really knows?]) \ntaken in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, I think all cats are like that. To suggest that GGL\nis somehow Special is to imply that other cats are Ordinary, and\nthat hardly seems likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's all the business with the organ playing in the museum?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cool effects? \n\nSorry, flip again. Try it this way:, who took (blanking on his \nname) from the museum and why, and why'd they let him go -- \nespecially out near-or-at the camp? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bob Roberts. Er - yes, who? The troll turns up in both places.\nAnd there's the strange boy, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is he fay? (And on which side?) I'm not sure. But clearly at least \nsome of the characters who want us (or who want the residents of the \ntown, or whom Wolfe wants us) to think they're mortal aren't, and \nhe's not a bad candidate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But then Sally and Seth would be fay too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are hints in it of trolls, which tells us who took the\ndiary, but why? Why play the music?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is a \"damifino\" question. I forgot about it completely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It always sticks in my head because it happens quite early\non, before we have *any* idea of what's happening, and because\nit is so dramatic and inexplicable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Viviane Morgan appears to be Vivian *and* Morgan le Fay.\nHow does she manage to be both?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-- and the Lady of the Lake, who is not _always_ the same \nperson as Viviane. I gather that \"identity\" is not the same \nthing to faeries as it is to us -- you may be me tomorrow?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[*]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does Sally really take up with von Madadh at the end?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It kind of looks that way. I wouldn't want to stake money on \nit, though; the story ends with no real sense of what is going \nto happen afterwards." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does Mercedes feel about that, if he killed her father?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did he? Are you sure? More important: Is Mercedes sure? Do we\nsee Mercedes seeing what Mercedes sees? What does she see and\nwhen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She certainly seems to believe it when they are all going home\nin the car. We don't see it directly, that's true, but isn't it\na wolf-like creature that goes for him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Von Madadh is King of Hounds or Wolves, and he's the dog\nthat Sally thinks is Rexy. But what's he doing? Is he just\nthere to lure everyone to the Castle?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suspect he's someone who's on neither side. I'm pretty darned \nsure that he has to do with the Wild Hunt. (H'mmm. Does the horned \nking show up again after Von Madadh appears... Is Von Madadh... \nAh, never mind...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rex von Madadh - King of Hounds. Of course. Dozy old Bear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is all the trouble at Meadow Grass to do with the attempts\nto kill Wrangler? It all seems rather indirect if so. If\nnot, what is it about?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lucie, at least. And Shields, once he shows up there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vivian was trying to get Wrangler (as a descendant of Arthur),\nso if she had succeeded he would have showed up in her castle\nas Shields did. Lucie was trying to kill him too, but maybe\nthat would have been different. Perhaps he would have become\na vampire (or whatever) like her. But why not just knock him\nover the head or push him under a horse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What is Sally doing in the wagon with the wild horsemen?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "See above re: Von Madadh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll bear that in mind next time I read it - you're right, I'm sure,\nbut I can't put the pieces together from memory. Thanks.\n\n[*] Re being you - no, no. Completely impossible. Couldn't happen.\n\nSBear." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Houston, Houston, do you read? I'd mortgage half my soul\n If I could hear it once again, Apollo, ground control\n The devil take the men who killed the dream that died too soon\n For all my dreams are haunted by a fire on the Moon.\n - Visual Purple." } ] } ] }