{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/255", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 255, "subject": "Severin", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "1997-11-06T09:08:21+00:00", "last": "1997-11-06T18:09:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Doug Eigsti", "address": "douge at nti.com" }, "date": "1997-11-06T09:08:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severin", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spooky mantis, good work on cim.\n\n\tSince you're lying down I couldn't help notice reference to\n\"Severin\" from Von Sacher Mashoch's VENUS IN FURS. I know you are not a\nproponent of the \"Severin\" to \"Severian\" connection but the contrasts are\nintriguing. Mashoch's Severin is the willing recipient of Wanda's\nexcruciations, a Masochist. Wolfe's Severian turns the tables, assuming the\nrole of torturer. Granted, he derives no pleasure from the act, other than\nthe faithful execution of the Autarch's orders, he is no Sadist (as you\ncorrectly pointed out). The silimairity in the names alone is enough to\nmake me think there is some connection, knowing how well read Mr. Wolfe is,\nunless you want to claim synchronicity or a Freudian slip.\n\n=Talon=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "m.driussi", "address": "m.driussi at genie.com" }, "date": "1997-11-06T18:09:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severin", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reply: Item #8062114 from URTH at LISTS.BEST.COM@INET03#\n\nTalon,\n\nThe Severin/Severian notion is pretty interesting and I'm glad you\nare still kicking it around. You could build it up into a solid\nessay, I'm sure.\n\nYou remind me that last time we corresponded on this I said Severian\nisn't an algophilist. Just to cause mischief: Well, that's what\n=Severian= insists at various points in the text. However, his\nrelations with women are a bit more dominating/alienated than we can\nreasonably assume would be \"average\" for a man who had grown up\n(1) under near-total gender segregation, (2) being instructed on the\narts of torture. Just as we begin to question his \"perfect memory,\"\nwe might well begin to doubt his lack of sadism.\n\nTo begin with the clear cases: he =knows= that he has been\npsychologically cruel to Dorcas with his flaunting of affairs with\nother women (well, maybe she doesn't know about Cyriaca); he =knows=\nthat he has caused physical pain in consensual carnal relations with\nDorcas. And this is a woman he really =loves=! Then there is the\nthreat of violence against the Thecla khaibit; the \"affair\" with\nJolenta that he himself says might have been rape (which is actually\nperhaps even more damning for his situation, since rape is shown to be\na form of punishment dealt out by torturers =by judicial order=; see\nalso the near-rape of Casdoe by zoanthrops); and so on, back to the\nbeginning where Severian, in a mood of petty vindictive jealousy,\ngives Thecla a knife rather than setting her free (to love somebody\nelse). (So how come people get all crazy about the petty vindictive\nbehavior of the women in \"The Cat\" as some kind of gender issue when\nSeverian his own self is so much worse--and that's before ingesting\nThecla. [:)])\n\n(Hey, maybe I should call \"[:)]\" the Frankensmiley.)\n\nNow if I recollect my cliff notes aright, VENUS IN FURS is at one\nlevel about the natural evolution of a masochist into a sadist, a\ntransformation between what looks like polar opposites. TBOTNS is\nabout the metamorphosis of a torturer into a kind of anti-torturer,\nbut even in his \"advanced\" state, Severian has some odd moments with\nwomen: for example, his abrupt murder of the mistress of the jailors;\nthe petty vindictive jealousy that might underlie the \"accidental\"\nassassination of Valeria.\n\nSEVERIAN IS AN ANTI-HERO. I don't think that people will argue with\nthat point. Among various \"heroic\" attributes we find \"chivalric\nattitude towards women\"; and yea, verily, Severian lacks this quality at\nvarious levels, confirming his anti-hero status. Moorcock's Elric is\nalso an anti-hero; but when Elric kills the woman he loves (as when Jerry\nCornelius shoots his sister/lover) it is an \"accident\" rather than\npre-meditated (pulling punches?). OTOH in Clint Eastwood's \"The\nUnforgiven,\" as in Poe's \"The Cask of Amontillado,\" [sp?] there is that\nmoment when suddenly the reader's alligence shifts from protagonist to\nantagonist-as-victim.\n\nGo Talon!\n\n=mantis=" } ] } ] }