Subject: (urth) Re: Lune & Urth

From: David DiGiacomo <dd at adobe.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 08:01:45 +0000

>Thinking further on the Urth-Lune relationship has led me to wonder if
>there is any evidence that Blue and Green from the Long/Short Sun books
>could actually be Urth and Lune, the Whorl having returned to its origin
>in Planet Of The Apes fashion? Either in the Ushas period, or possibly
>having arrived in some pre-Typhon era?

This has been discussed on the Whorl list.  It doesn't really hold up.
How could they travel to Urth if they were already there?  Also, the
gravity on Green seems similar to that of Blue.

>Has anyone found mention of how Lune was terraformed? Some giant,
>lunar-sized Bracelet of Air? It does seem odd that Lune remains green
>while the vegetation on Urth is dying.

What seems odd to me is that the Old Sun is so obviously dim and red, but
conditions on Urth are more or less normal.  I thought that even a change
in the Sun's output too small to notice by eye would lead to catastrophic
changes on Earth/Urth.

And while we're at it... is the White Fountain inside the Old Sun,
orbiting Urth, or just hanging around?

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 18:01:46 +0000

> From: dd at Adobe.COM (David DiGiacomo)

> gravity on Green seems similar to that of Blue.

	Urth-normal gravity is would be expected if Lune's atmosphere was to be
retained without some sort of container. The current moon's gravity is
not strong enough to retain air. BOTNS includes several examples of
gravity-altering technology, and a force powerful enough to move the
moon from today's 250,000 miles distance to 150,000 in the Autarchy
could also add extra mass to it, increasing gravity "naturally."
	As for how the Whorl can leave Urth and travel to Urth, it could be a
cosmic accident like in Planet Of The Apes (unlikely), or it could be a
plot by the duplicitous Typhon. Typhon could have planned the Whorl as a
contingency to restore his dynasty if were to have been deposed before
it's arrival at the end of its circular course. 
 
> in the Sun's output too small to notice by eye would lead to catastrophic

	There may well have been, but the various other world-altering changes
may have countered some of the effect and left the Commonwealth with no
obvious differences that show in the text. There are so many oddities
that Severian does not remark upon directly but only emerge by close
reading that any number of others could be accommodated. 
	For example, crop yields could be horribly low, vitamin deficiencies
rampant, etc. but Sev does not mention them since from his POV that's
the way things are. The vastly dwindling number of apprentices near his
age might be a clue, though.
 
> orbiting Urth, or just hanging around?

	It's my opinion that it likely plunged into the sun, revitalizing it
before it and the black beans cancel out. 

-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

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From: Tony Ellis <tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:47:04 +0000

> before it and the black beans cancel out.

Pedant that I am, I have to point out that the black beans don't equate
to the black hole gnawing away at the sun. The story of the black beans
is the story of how Erebus and co. came to Urth.

--
Tony Ellis
On-line Editor, PC Format magazine
01225 442244 x2349
http://www.pcformat.co.uk

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:08:13 +0000

> From: "Tony Ellis" <tony.ellis at futurenet.co.uk>

> is the story of how Erebus and co. came to Urth.

	Then again, can we be sure that's all they represent? Who is
responsible for putting the black hole in the sun?

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:08:13 +0000

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:03:50 +0000

> From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>

> responsible for putting the black hole in the sun?

	More thinking reveals what might be a sort of inverted literary
allusion in the black beans/black hole matter. (I've pointed out
numerous
examples of inverted parallels and analogies in GW's work in times
previous to the Wolfe fans on GEnie.) In a reversal of the Jack and the 
Beanstalk story, the black beans/hole grow a vinculum not up into the 
clouds, but "down" to the Abbadon universe, allowing the bad creatures 
there to make off with the earth's gold, i.e. the energy output required
for the sun to show its natural yellow color when warming the earth. I
suppose that the other treasures that Jack makes off with in the
original
tale could be the other lost assets of the earth, like the supposed
shortage of metal, but I haven't had to time to take it much farther, 
if I haven't stretched the comparison too far already.