# Lune & Urth *The Urth list — 6 messages, 3 voices, 03 Mar 2001* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### David DiGiacomo *03 Mar 2001, 08:01* > Thinking further on the Urth-Lune relationship has led me to wonder if > there is any evidence that Blue and Green from the Long/Short Sun books > could actually be Urth and Lune, the Whorl having returned to its origin > in Planet Of The Apes fashion? Either in the Ushas period, or possibly > having arrived in some pre-Typhon era? This has been discussed on the Whorl list. It doesn't really hold up. How could they travel to Urth if they were already there? Also, the gravity on Green seems similar to that of Blue. > Has anyone found mention of how Lune was terraformed? Some giant, > lunar-sized Bracelet of Air? It does seem odd that Lune remains green > while the vegetation on Urth is dying. What seems odd to me is that the Old Sun is so obviously dim and red, but conditions on Urth are more or less normal. I thought that even a change in the Sun's output too small to notice by eye would lead to catastrophic changes on Earth/Urth. And while we're at it... is the White Fountain inside the Old Sun, orbiting Urth, or just hanging around? --- ### Jeff Wilson *04 Mar 2001, 18:01 · follows David DiGiacomo* > From: dd at Adobe.COM (David DiGiacomo) >> Thinking further on the Urth-Lune relationship has led me to wonder if >> there is any evidence that Blue and Green from the Long/Short Sun books >> could actually be Urth and Lune, the Whorl having returned to its origin >> in Planet Of The Apes fashion? Either in the Ushas period, or possibly >> having arrived in some pre-Typhon era? > This has been discussed on the Whorl list. It doesn't really hold up. > How could they travel to Urth if they were already there? Also, the > gravity on Green seems similar to that of Blue. Urth-normal gravity is would be expected if Lune's atmosphere was to be retained without some sort of container. The current moon's gravity is not strong enough to retain air. BOTNS includes several examples of gravity-altering technology, and a force powerful enough to move the moon from today's 250,000 miles distance to 150,000 in the Autarchy could also add extra mass to it, increasing gravity "naturally." As for how the Whorl can leave Urth and travel to Urth, it could be a cosmic accident like in Planet Of The Apes (unlikely), or it could be a plot by the duplicitous Typhon. Typhon could have planned the Whorl as a contingency to restore his dynasty if were to have been deposed before it's arrival at the end of its circular course. >> Has anyone found mention of how Lune was terraformed? Some giant, >> lunar-sized Bracelet of Air? It does seem odd that Lune remains green >> while the vegetation on Urth is dying. > What seems odd to me is that the Old Sun is so obviously dim and red, but > conditions on Urth are more or less normal. I thought that even a change > in the Sun's output too small to notice by eye would lead to catastrophic > changes on Earth/Urth. There may well have been, but the various other world-altering changes may have countered some of the effect and left the Commonwealth with no obvious differences that show in the text. There are so many oddities that Severian does not remark upon directly but only emerge by close reading that any number of others could be accommodated. For example, crop yields could be horribly low, vitamin deficiencies rampant, etc. but Sev does not mention them since from his POV that's the way things are. The vastly dwindling number of apprentices near his age might be a clue, though. > And while we're at it... is the White Fountain inside the Old Sun, > orbiting Urth, or just hanging around? It's my opinion that it likely plunged into the sun, revitalizing it before it and the black beans cancel out. ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law ``` --- ### Tony Ellis *06 Mar 2001, 13:47 · follows Jeff Wilson* > Jeff Wilson wrote: > It's my opinion that it likely plunged into the sun, revitalizing it > before it and the black beans cancel out. Pedant that I am, I have to point out that the black beans don't equate to the black hole gnawing away at the sun. The story of the black beans is the story of how Erebus and co. came to Urth. ``` Tony Ellis On-line Editor, PC Format magazine 01225 442244 x2349 http://www.pcformat.co.uk ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Mar 2001, 18:08 · follows Tony Ellis* > From: "Tony Ellis" > Jeff Wilson wrote: >> It's my opinion that it likely plunged into the sun, revitalizing it >> before it and the black beans cancel out. > Pedant that I am, I have to point out that the black beans don't equate > to the black hole gnawing away at the sun. The story of the black beans > is the story of how Erebus and co. came to Urth. Then again, can we be sure that's all they represent? Who is responsible for putting the black hole in the sun? ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Mar 2001, 18:08 · follows Jeff Wilson* > From: "Tony Ellis" > Jeff Wilson wrote: >> It's my opinion that it likely plunged into the sun, revitalizing it >> before it and the black beans cancel out. > Pedant that I am, I have to point out that the black beans don't equate > to the black hole gnawing away at the sun. The story of the black beans > is the story of how Erebus and co. came to Urth. Then again, can we be sure that's all they represent? Who is responsible for putting the black hole in the sun? ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *08 Mar 2001, 23:03 · follows Jeff Wilson* > From: Jeff Wilson >> From: "Tony Ellis" >> Jeff Wilson wrote: >>> It's my opinion that it likely plunged into the sun, revitalizing it >>> before it and the black beans cancel out. >> Pedant that I am, I have to point out that the black beans don't equate >> to the black hole gnawing away at the sun. The story of the black beans >> is the story of how Erebus and co. came to Urth. > Then again, can we be sure that's all they represent? Who is > responsible for putting the black hole in the sun? More thinking reveals what might be a sort of inverted literary allusion in the black beans/black hole matter. (I've pointed out numerous examples of inverted parallels and analogies in GW's work in times previous to the Wolfe fans on GEnie.) In a reversal of the Jack and the Beanstalk story, the black beans/hole grow a vinculum not up into the clouds, but "down" to the Abbadon universe, allowing the bad creatures there to make off with the earth's gold, i.e. the energy output required for the sun to show its natural yellow color when warming the earth. I suppose that the other treasures that Jack makes off with in the original tale could be the other lost assets of the earth, like the supposed shortage of metal, but I haven't had to time to take it much farther, if I haven't stretched the comparison too far already. ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law ``` ---