{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2591", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2591, "subject": "more Phillip Pullman", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-04-18T20:49:53+00:00", "last": "2001-04-18T22:52:27+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Freestone", "address": "matthew at axiomatic.org.uk" }, "date": "2001-04-18T20:49:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) more Phillip Pullman", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to take up a few points raised:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "His Dark Materials, and comprises three volumes:\n_The Golden Compass_; _The Subtle Knife_; and\n_The Amber Spyglass_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The UK edition of The Golden Compass is entitled Northern Lights (or at\nleast the one I have is so entitled). The Golden Compass fits better\nwith the series though.\nPullman has written novels before HDM too - though I have to say I've\nnot read them.\n\n\n(from William Ansley)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In _The Amber Spyglass_ the whole works just blows up in your face. The \nplot clanks; endless needless complications and characters are introduced. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say that's a bit strong. Certainly the last book is not so well\ncontrolled as the earlier ones, but I don't think all the new\ncomplications and characters are needless by any means. I found most of\nthe book very satisfying - the war against heaven, the sequence in the\nland of the dead. I'll give you the sections about the creatures on\nwheels though - didn't do much for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The characters, at least some of them, including major ones, start acting \nunlike themselves. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm wondering who you are thinking of - if it's Mrs Coulter then I have\nto disagree - but I won't go any further down that route in case that's\nnot who you're thinking of." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Pullman evidently regards the success of the first \ntwo volumes in the series to be a license to turns parts of the third book \ninto a virulent anti-Catholic screed (thinly disguised but unmistakable). I \nconsider myself agnostic, but this aspect of the book made me \nuncomfortable. A certain anti-church bias is evident in the first two books \nas well, but nothing like what comes out in the third." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I've got to disagree strongly - the anti-religious bias is explicit\nand obvious from the start. The first book largely concerns a branch of\nthe church running a torture centre for children let's not forget. You\ncan like or dislike this, but it's not fair to Pullman to say he used\nhis success as a platform for his views - they were in the work from the\nvery start." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In short, I might recommend this series on the merits of the first two \nvolumes, but only to someone who is not likely to be offended by a very \nanti-Christian message. (This seems to be a real bugaboo for Pullman. He \napparently gave an interview some time ago in which he attacked C. S. Lewis \nand the Narnia books, which garnered him much ill will from their fans.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably the Interzone interview with Elizabeth Counihan in IZ 161\n(11/00). \nQuoting briefly, \"I don't like his (Lewis's) fiction and especially\ndetest his children's fiction. I think his Christian apologetics are\ndishonest. (...) He has some very sensible ... things to say about\nwriting fiction and writing for children in particular, but his work is\ndedicated to propaganda in the service of a form of religion I find\npoisonous and damaging.\"\n\n\nYou could reasonably argue that HDM is propaganda in the service of the\nform of religion (essentially humanism) that Pullman finds wholesome and\nrewarding. But it's also a good story, with interesting characters. I've\nread most of the Harry Potter books and enjoyed them, but HDM is a work\non a much more ambitious level, which succeeds more than it fails imho.\n\nIt's also supposed to be based on the structure of Paradise Lost. I\nhaven't read that, so I can't really comment. Anyone?\n\n(typical - my first post for over a year, and probably my longest ever,\nand it's not even about Gene Wolfe!) \n-- \nMatt Freestone - matthew at axiomatic.org.uk \nwww.axiomatic.org.uk SF: www.concatenation.org work: www.mercator.com" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-04-18T22:52:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) more Phillip Pullman", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very good, Matthew. You have provided a reply which nicely balances \nmy message. Certainly don't let me discourage anyone from reading the \nbooks and making up their own minds about them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just to take up a few points raised:\n\n\n(from William Ansley)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In _The Amber Spyglass_ the whole works just blows up in your face. The\nplot clanks; endless needless complications and characters are introduced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would say that's a bit strong. Certainly the last book is not so well\ncontrolled as the earlier ones, but I don't think all the new\ncomplications and characters are needless by any means. I found most of\nthe book very satisfying - the war against heaven, the sequence in the\nland of the dead. I'll give you the sections about the creatures on\nwheels though - didn't do much for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found the sequence in the land of the dead to be the weakest part \nof the book by far. It destroyed the logical cohesion of the multiple \nworlds idea, as far as as I am concerned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The characters, at least some of them, including major ones, start acting\nunlike themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm wondering who you are thinking of - if it's Mrs Coulter then I have\nto disagree - but I won't go any further down that route in case that's\nnot who you're thinking of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Primarily Mrs. Coulter, yes. I am thinking of some others too, but I \nwould have to reread the book to remember exactly who now." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And Pullman evidently regards the success of the first\ntwo volumes in the series to be a license to turns parts of the third book\ninto a virulent anti-Catholic screed (thinly disguised but unmistakable). I\nconsider myself agnostic, but this aspect of the book made me\nuncomfortable. A certain anti-church bias is evident in the first two books\nas well, but nothing like what comes out in the third." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here I've got to disagree strongly - the anti-religious bias is explicit\nand obvious from the start. The first book largely concerns a branch of\nthe church running a torture centre for children let's not forget. You\ncan like or dislike this, but it's not fair to Pullman to say he used\nhis success as a platform for his views - they were in the work from the\nvery start." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To me, he seem to be obsessed with the anti-religious message of the \nbook in the last volume in a way that he wasn't in the first two. \nBut, I agree that this aspect of the books was quite obvious from the \nstart." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In short, I might recommend this series on the merits of the first two\nvolumes, but only to someone who is not likely to be offended by a very\nanti-Christian message. (This seems to be a real bugaboo for Pullman. He\napparently gave an interview some time ago in which he attacked C. S. Lewis\nand the Narnia books, which garnered him much ill will from their fans.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Probably the Interzone interview with Elizabeth Counihan in IZ 161\n(11/00).\nQuoting briefly, \"I don't like his (Lewis's) fiction and especially\ndetest his children's fiction. I think his Christian apologetics are\ndishonest. (...) He has some very sensible ... things to say about\nwriting fiction and writing for children in particular, but his work is\ndedicated to propaganda in the service of a form of religion I find\npoisonous and damaging.\"\n\n\nYou could reasonably argue that HDM is propaganda in the service of the\nform of religion (essentially humanism) that Pullman finds wholesome and\nrewarding. But it's also a good story, with interesting characters. I've\nread most of the Harry Potter books and enjoyed them, but HDM is a work\non a much more ambitious level, which succeeds more than it fails imho." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would go so far as to say that you cannot reasonably argue that \nHDM* is not such propaganda. Let me try to be clear. I also thought \nvery highly of HDM. As I said, some of the anti-religious material \nmade me uncomfortable, but that was only a very small part of why I \nwas disappointed in _The Amber Spyglass_. I made a big deal out of it \nbecause it apparently bothered some people a good deal (judging by \nsome reader reviews I have seen posted) and I felt a warning was in \norder. For the record I have also read and enjoyed the Narnia books \nby C. S. Lewis. But, Lewis's propagandizing in these books also made \nme uncomfortable at certain points; I was much more aware of this \nwhen I re-read the books after several years had gone by.\n\nMy primary complaint about HDM is that it didn't fulfill the promise \nof the first two in many ways. I felt Pullman violated the logical \nframework he set up in the first two books in many ways. The \nrevelation of the nature of \"dust,\" such as it was, fell flat for me. \nI don't want to go into any more detail here so as to avoid spoilers.\n\nI entirely agree that HDM was a better and certainly a much more \nambitious series than the Harry Potter books. Frankly, I think J. K. \nRowling is becoming a victim of her own success. I felt her fourth \nbook was weaker than the third and she still has three more to go. \nThen again, I am really being unfair to Rowling; she hasn't even \nconcluded her series and I'm trashing it.\n\nI think I'm in a rut. I don't like the third volume of HDM or the \nShort Sun books and I am afraid I will not enjoy the conclusion of \nthe Harry Potter series. Well, conclusions are very, very hard. \nPerhaps I should be a little more forgiving." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matt Freestone - matthew at axiomatic.org.uk\nwww.axiomatic.org.uk SF: www.concatenation.org work: www.mercator.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n*His Dark Materials, the overall title of the series." } ] } ] }