{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2595", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2595, "subject": "ENGINE SUMMER: Why?", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-21T11:51:26+00:00", "last": "2001-04-27T17:09:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-21T12:59:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) ENGINE SUMMER: Why?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm taking advantage of Ranjit's offer to discuss Crowley on the urth list.\nThis post grows out of a discussion a few of us have been having about\nENGINE SUMMER, which appears to have ground to a halt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/17/01 9:30 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at sirius.com wrote:\nRe: the rape comment. Careful readers might have spotted this first in the\nold message to David Duffy (who should be sending a message any moment\nnow). Because somewhere else we were talking about authorial cruelty, and\nI wrote something along the lines: if the sphere is a book or record that\nbleeds and pleads not to be turned off, then it isn't a book or record as\nwe know these things, and the repeated activation/deactivation is\nunbelievably cruel, like a multiple rape (and essentially pointless since\nthere are recordings made so that the thing doesn't have to be activated\nfor a true reader to read the story; it only serves for purposes of\ninterrogation, questioning the sphere)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Michael raises an important question: why have Rush tell his story?\nAccording to the angel's final description of how Rush has \"made them\nhappy,\" the point of using the sphere is not to learn what happened to Rush;\nit's to *be* Rush temporarily. The angel does apparently answer this\nquestion at the start of the fourth crystal: Rush asks her why she needs the\ncrystals, and she replies \"Only to see...to see how strong you are. I mean\nwhether the story will change, depending on who...\" [ellipses Crowley's].\nBut her hesitant speech here, which is not at all typical of her, makes me\nsuspect she is being evasive. And in any case, her explanation is weak:\nwith 298 copies of the story on file already, the angels should know how\nmuch variability there is in Rush's story without needing a 299th.\n\nThere are a few clues scattered throughout the book. Near the start of the\nsecond crystal, Rush asks the angel who he is, adding: \"It's very confusing.\nI feel myself to be me, and only me; but that can't be so.\" (note that Rush\nknows from the start his situation, since Mongolfier had explained to him\nwhat he was going to do). The angel replies \"Go on with your story; it's\nless confusing. It's best just to tell the story beginning to end--that's\nsomething we know about you.\" The angel's final phrase suggests that they\nhave previously tried not having Rush tell his story, and the results have\nbeen bad. And in ENGINE SUMMER itself, we see that Rush is calm as long as\nhe is telling his story, but as soon as the story ends he becomes very\ndistressed, and indeed asks to be \"put to sleep.\"\n\nThe other clues fit in with the suspicion aroused by this one. Near the\nstart of the fifth facet of the second crystal, Rush asks \"Do you know this\nstory better than I do?\" and the angel replies: \"Go on. It's not for my\nsake you tell it.\" At first this seems to have an obvious meaning: Rush\ntells the story for the sake of the city of angels as a whole. But on\nfurther thought, this doesn't really work. If the angel knows Rush's story,\nthen so does the city. If the angel is talking about how _this_ Rush will\ntell the story, then she doesn't know this either. So for who else's sake\ncould Rush be telling the story? In light of the preceding clue, I submit\nthat the answer is Rush himself; and ultimately Rush's host, who will thus\nbe able to prolong his \"possession\" by Rush.\n\nThe remaining clue is less weighty, but consistent with this line of\nthought. At the start of the third crystal, Rush says \"Angel...tell me this\nnow...\" and the angel replies \"No. Not yet\" and asks him about his story.\nIt's a fair bet that Rush is going to ask questions about his current\nsituation, and the angel says \"not yet\" because she knows that once he\nbegins thinking about his situation the session is over.\n\nCollectively, the implication of these passages is clear. The angels are\naware of how traumatic Rush's afterlife is for him. The reason they have\nhim tell his story each time is not to hear the new host's spin on it,\nalthough that's a side benefit, but to keep \"Rush\" from falling apart for as\nlong as possible, and so prolong the \"possession.\" Returning to the passage\nI began with, the angel told the truth in the first sentence. They record\nthe sessions with Rush to see how strong Rush is, literally: to make sure\nthey aren't putting more strain on him than he can endure.\n\nMichael will probably be pleased that I'm arguing, not only that the angel\nknows in advance that she will be inflicting pain on Rush, but that she lies\noutright to him (no truthful speaker she!). But in partial extenuation of\nthe angels, if the sphere is just a recording, and so feels nothing, then\nthe only entity really suffering is Rush's host, who knew what he was\nletting himself in for. One might ask, if the angel is going to lie to\nRush, why doesn't she lie about his having been reactivated many times\nbefore, since this upsets him so much? Perhaps they feel he's entitled to\nknow the truth about something so crucial to his own situation. Or maybe\nthey've already tried telling him this was the first time, and that upset\nRush too (from the quote in my third paragraph, it seems Rush suspects he's\nbeen revived before).\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at sirius.com" }, "date": "2001-04-21T11:51:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) ENGINE SUMMER: Why?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam wrote about ENGINE SUMMER, including this bit:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other clues fit in with the suspicion aroused by this one. Near the\nstart of the fifth facet of the second crystal, Rush asks \"Do you know this\nstory better than I do?\" and the angel replies: \"Go on. It's not for my\nsake you tell it.\" At first this seems to have an obvious meaning: Rush\ntells the story for the sake of the city of angels as a whole. But on\nfurther thought, this doesn't really work. If the angel knows Rush's story,\nthen so does the city. If the angel is talking about how _this_ Rush will\ntell the story, then she doesn't know this either. So for who else's sake\ncould Rush be telling the story? In light of the preceding clue, I submit\nthat the answer is Rush himself; and ultimately Rush's host, who will thus\nbe able to prolong his \"possession\" by Rush." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is also the obvious metafictional answer: it is not for the angels,\nnor their city, but only for the reader of ENGINE SUMMER. This ties in\nwith the large and complex \"reader/text\" mode (where Rush is like a text\nand the recording angel is like a reader; and they are all fictions in a\nstory, trying to work out another story, for a reader who is above and\nbeyond them). Unfortunately this has a side-effect of implicating the real\nreader with the torture.\n\n\"Why are you torturing me?\"\n\n\"To entertain the reader. Look, it is working--she smiles!\"\n\n=mantis=\n\nSirius Fiction\nCatalog and errata sheet at http://www.sirius.com/~mantis/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-04-25T22:22:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: ENGINE SUMMER: Why?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 4/24/01 7:26 PM, eli+ at gs211.sp.cs.cmu.edu at eli+ at gs211.sp.cs.cmu.edu\nwrote:\nI'm cc'ing blindly to the urth list, which I'm not on (until such time\nas I read enough Wolfe that it wouldn't be spoiler bombardment) -- I\nhope this is apropos to whatever's going on over there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the moment, very little is going on, and we've been given permission by\nthe list's moderator to discuss Crowley (though there doesn't seem to be\nmuch interest at the moment)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and she replies \"Only to see...to see how strong you are. I mean\nwhether the story will change, depending on who...\" [ellipses Crowley's].\nBut her hesitant speech here, which is not at all typical of her, makes me\nsuspect she is being evasive. And in any case, her explanation is weak:\nwith 298 copies of the story on file already, the angels should know how\nmuch variability there is in Rush's story without needing a 299th." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The 299th recording wouldn't tell them much new about variability, but\nmore than that, it's not apparent it would tell them much new at all.\nI agree the angel's being shady, but I can't see what the real answer\nwould have to be to sound convincing.\n\nUm. You know when you go... bungee-jumping or something? And they\noffer you a videotape of your jump, as a souvenir?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But if this were the answer, why would the angel be evasive?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I began with, the angel told the truth in the first sentence. They record\nthe sessions with Rush to see how strong Rush is, literally: to make sure\nthey aren't putting more strain on him than he can endure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmm, expand on this for me? How do the recordings let them do this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I admit this is the most conjectural part of my theory. I was imagining a\ncommittee or something going over the crystal afterwards, seeing what got\nRush agitated and what calmed him down. Or perhaps the crystals serve like\nthe black box recording in a plane's cockpit--in case the session does\n\"crash,\" they'll be able to tell what they did wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Michael will probably be pleased that I'm arguing, not only that the angel\nknows in advance that she will be inflicting pain on Rush, but that she lies\noutright to him (no truthful speaker she!). But in partial extenuation of\nthe angels, if the sphere is just a recording, and so feels nothing, then\nthe only entity really suffering is Rush's host, who knew what he was\nletting himself in for." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I feel like there's another person here, a Rush-in-the-host. He's\ndoing the suffering. The host will come back later and take the\nmemories. There's certainly a lot of pain tangled up -- my reading\nwas that David's use of \"rape\" was in reference to Rush's pain here,\nand Michael's recent use was to the host's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My sense is that though Rush-in-the-host and the host may be separate\npersonalities, there is only one consciousness, or \"soul,\" that of the host.\nI can't prove it, though.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "eli+", "address": "eli+ at gs211.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-04-27T17:09:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: ENGINE SUMMER: Why? (fwd)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(fwd of the message that only Adam got.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nMichael raises an important question: why have Rush tell his story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like your sharpening of this point, and I think your theory -- that\nit's to extend the host's Rush experience by keeping Rush stable -- is\nwell supported, especially considering the amount of evidence\navailable. (Let's ignore the meta answer that Rush's telling his\nstory constitutes the book.) A possible variant is that being Rush\ntelling his story is what the host is after." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and she replies \"Only to see...to see how strong you are. I mean\nwhether the story will change, depending on who...\" [ellipses Crowley's].\nBut her hesitant speech here, which is not at all typical of her, makes me\nsuspect she is being evasive. And in any case, her explanation is weak:\nwith 298 copies of the story on file already, the angels should know how\nmuch variability there is in Rush's story without needing a 299th." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The 299th recording wouldn't tell them much new about variability, but\nmore than that, it's not apparent it would tell them much new at all.\nI agree the angel's being shady, but I can't see what the real answer\nwould have to be to sound convincing.\n\nUm. You know when you go... bungee-jumping or something? And they\noffer you a videotape of your jump, as a souvenir?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other clues fit in with the suspicion aroused by this one. Near the\nstart of the fifth facet of the second crystal, Rush asks \"Do you know this\nstory better than I do?\" and the angel replies: \"Go on. It's not for my\nsake you tell it.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The variant on your interpretation: it could be that Rush's telling is\nfor the host's sake, but not because Rush breaks down without it --\ninstead, because the Rush experience that the host is after is the\nexperience of telling the story. Of being a truthful speaker. (\"We\nare truthful speakers too\", indeed.) Well, to be precise, the memory\nof that experience.\n\nI do think that 2.1 \"Go on with your story; it's less confusing. It's\nbest just to tell the story beginning to end--that's something we know\nabout you.\" does support your variant better, but it could mean that\nthe host is after a \"truthful speaking\" trip rather than one about\ntangled identity games." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I began with, the angel told the truth in the first sentence. They record\nthe sessions with Rush to see how strong Rush is, literally: to make sure\nthey aren't putting more strain on him than he can endure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, expand on this for me? How do the recordings let them do this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael will probably be pleased that I'm arguing, not only that the angel\nknows in advance that she will be inflicting pain on Rush, but that she lies\noutright to him (no truthful speaker she!). But in partial extenuation of\nthe angels, if the sphere is just a recording, and so feels nothing, then\nthe only entity really suffering is Rush's host, who knew what he was\nletting himself in for." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I feel like there's another person here, a Rush-in-the-host. He's\ndoing the suffering. The host will come back later and take the\nmemories. There's certainly a lot of pain tangled up -- my reading\nwas that David's use of \"rape\" was in reference to Rush's pain here,\nand Michael's recent use was to the host's.\n\nWhen Rush gets his letter from Dr. Boots: \"And then there came the\ntime that I must tell you of, but can't; the time when Boots was\nthere, and I was not. When I was not in Rush that Speaks, and Boots\nwas; when Boots lived; when she was Rush and I was not; when I was not\nat all.\" (A precise description of the(?) mystical experience,\naccording to traditions that interpret it as possession by an Eternal,\nbut I bet none of them ever figured the Eternal was a stray cat.)\nDoesn't sound like the host is there at all. But in that case the\nhost didn't remember anything afterwards, while in this case he will.\nWhether that makes a difference is a psychological question too deep\nfor me.\n\nTangentially: after the letter, there is a distinction made between\n\"Rush\" and \"I\". For months, if I remember right, until the\n`confusion'? I wonder if the Rush-sphere has this effect, or only\nBoots, or whether the lingering depersonalization is a drug-anecdote\nwithout general implications for the physics of the story.\n\nMore tangentially: _ES_ mixed with Hoban's _The Medusa Frequency_\nforms an admirable confusion.\n\nDON'T THINK OF ME. IF YOU THINK OF ME I MAY BE REAL. LET ME NOT BE REAL.\nsays the Kraken, the giant squid in that netsuke with the girl and the\ngiant squid, Orpheus.\n\nIs there a story of me? I asked myself. Am I in it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Eli Brandt | eli+ at cs.cmu.edu | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/" } ] } ] }