{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2597", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2597, "subject": "One more New Sun IAQ", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-04-22T09:18:42+00:00", "last": "2001-05-09T14:02:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Talarican", "address": "exultnttalarican at mindspring.com" }, "date": "2001-04-22T09:18:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) One more New Sun IAQ", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Into the relative quiet reigning on the Urth list at present, I interject\nwhat I anticipate will be the final installment of BNS IAQ's. Hopefully\nthese will turn out to be one of the better production runs. Enjoy.\n - The Mad Exultant\n\n(Shadow, IV) Okay, where DID Triskele go, and to whom? Apart from Sev's\nstatement that they reencountered each other occasionally, Wolfe teases us\nwith too many sly speculations about Triskele's whereabouts to simply\ndismiss the issue as a detail-for-texture. (In fact, Triskele contributes\nnothing to moving the plot along, so he serves some other purpose) Did\nTriskele die about the time Severian went into exile? Of what, and why?\nAquastors are \"always of the dead\", and the Triskele which accompanied the\naquastor of Master Malrubius clearly was an aquastor, as it vanished with\nMalrubius. If Triskele has NOT died prior to that time, then how do we\nresolve the paradox?\n(possible partial answer: having escaped into the old tunnels which\npresumably connect to the Corridors of Time, Triskele was in the past or\nfuture and therefore not \"alive\", for the purposes of the Aquastor\nRestriction, at the time of Sev's walk on the beach. So where/when WAS he at\nthe time?)\n(another possible sly clue: Sev speculates that perhaps Triskele was adopted\nby someone who headed north to the war, but he doesn't explicitly specify a\nsoldier. Could Triskele have encountered other denizens of the Corridors of\nTime, such as Inire?)\n\n(Sword, XIV) What was pictured on the giant ancient mosaic exposed on\nCasdoe's Cliff, over which Sev descended but never deciphered? Like the\npicture of\nNeil Armstrong planting the flag on the Moon, will this turn out to be some\nrecognizeable cultural icon from our time, perhaps a corporate logo?\n(It is interesting to see how similar is Sev's description of what he\nobserves in the tiles, to the \"magic eye\" art that was to become a fad about\na decade after _Sword_ was published.)\n(One possible clue: the predominant colors are beryl (pale green with a\nbluish cast, i.e. aquamarine, teal) and white.)\n( I considered the Proctor & Gamble logo, P&G being owner of the Pringle's\nbrand, but its official color is blue)\n\n(Shadow XXXV) As the players approach the Piteous Gate, Dr. Talos points out\nthe abundant undeveloped meadowlands still available for use within the\nWall. Baldanders shakes his head and replies \"They were not for the growing\nof Nessus\". What did Baldanders believe they were for? What WERE they for,\nthen?\n\nAnother thing: Baldanders is clearly in his way a rebel and a menace to the\nCommonwealth, yet he and Dr. Talos repeatedly pass through the heavily\nguarded Gates without a care in the world. Surely his activities in the\nnorth, though Lake Diuturna is so remote, could not altogether have escaped\nthe notice of officials of the Commonwealth such as the archon of Thrax.\nNews of his visits from Hierodules has even become known to Cyriaca in\nThrax! (Sword XII) Surely the House Absolute, even without Inire's exotic\nmethods of surveillance, must have some idea something peculiar and\npotentially worrisome is brewing in those parts.\nWould Hierodules have dealings with citizens of the Commonwealth and not\ninform Inire, who is presumably their ambassador/control agent on Urth?\nCould they do so without Inire finding out? Would Inire know such a thing\nand keep it to himself?\n Talos actually offers the observation (Shadow XXXV) that some guards in the\ngarrison manning the gates probably are on the lookout for persons on the\nAutarch's Most Wanted List. Later, as the company broke up and went its\nseparate ways (Claw, XXVI), Talos said he at first speculated that Sev was\nsent by operatives of the House Absolute for intimidation, but readily\ndismissed that notion as \"an absurd overreaction\" and remained untroubled by\nthe fact a servant of the Autarch travelled with them. (Perhaps an \"absurd\nunderreaction\". One might think a more appropriate response, on learning the\nnotorious rebel mad scientist was abroad, would be to send an Inquisitor,\nleading a squad of anpiels and fusilarii, after him) Why is Baldanders so\nconfident he is not being sought, or that his disguise is so perfect he can\npass through a gauntlet of vigilant pandours undetected? (but they're\nlooking for a _small_ man!)\n(Could Baldanders, like Vodalus, be in the final analysis a cats-paw of that\npower the Autarch serves? The Hierodules do seem to hint broadly at this\npossibility)\n\nFor that matter, the purpose of the Wall is somewhat problematical, in spite\nof Jonas' hints. While it seems to serve in and of itself as a fortress as\nwell as a defensive work, it seems rather extravagant and useless. A\ncivilization capable of building it should not need it, and it would\npresumably constitute only an annoying minor obstacle to any enemy capable\nof seriously threatening such a civilization. Flyers can simply pass over\nit, it is irrelevant to a bombardment or invasion from the air or from\norbit, and doubtless concentrated high energy artillery could breach it in a\nmatter of days. The only rationalization that makes any sense would be that\nthe builders somehow anticipated the future decadence of their civilization,\nand wished to bequeath their descendants a formidable passive defense\nrequiring little maintenance or skill to be effective against similarly\nregressed adversaries.\n\nAnother problem with the Wall arises in Urth (XLVII, XLVIII) . Where is it\nafter the flood? The water covering Nessus does not cover, and did not knock\nover, the towers of the Citadel, assuming we accept Sev's assertion that\nthat observation was real. Yet the Wall, high as the lowest clouds, seems to\nhave essentially vanished, though Sev did indeed mention that \"sections\" of\nthe Wall were down. One would have thought that if the incoming wave\ncouldn't knock down the Citadel towers, the Wall could have withstood it and\nindeed\npreserved the City within its circle, provided the gates were closed. (That\nwould be another valid purpose for building it) If nothing else, the rubble\nwould have been tremendous and unmissable, possibly forming an atoll of\nmetal islands in the new sea.\n\nFor that matter, Sev at this point has at least two separate experiences of\nexploring drowned Nessus (under water deep enough to cover the Citadel\ntowers, then with Juturna in water shallow enough for the tops of the towers\nto break the surface.) Which, if either, of those experiences were true, the\nother at least, if not both, being a dream?\n\n(Urth XLV) What was Thais about to say to Sev after he offered Odilo his\nblanket on Eata's boat, \"I -\", cut off when Pega jabbed her? (\"I'll share\nmine with you\"? But why would Pega object? She could be next)\n\n(Claw XI, very end of chapter) Was the family estate of Thecla and Thea's\nclan located in the province ruled by Thrax, probably upriver? Were they one\nof those maverick exulted families of that province which caused the archon\nso much indigestion? (well, what with their daughters growing up to be\nVodalarii, it seems likely) As he first experiences her memories merging\nwith his after Vodalus' banquet, Severian has a Thecla-memory of playing by\nthe River Acis (!). This was indeed, so far as I could discover, the first\nmention of the river Acis in BNS, long before Sev arrived in Thrax.\nFor that matter, could they be the \"great northern clan\" of which the young\napprentice Eata fantasized being a lost scion? (Shadow II)\n\n(Urth XLVI) I realize that Autarch Severian might not wish to produce an\nheir prior to his New Sun trial, but - hey! - he was married to Valeria a\ngood decade or so before he left. How did they avoid a \"blessed event\" in\nall that time? Are birth control pills available in the Commonwealth, or was\nthe relationship of Severian and Valeria asexual? It is interesting that, of\nall the women with whom Sev has encounters, the one he actually marries is\none of the few never described in even abstractly erotic terms.\n\nWhen Dr. Talos visits the Autarch Severian (Citadel XXXVI) in order to pay\nhim his last remaining share from their itenerant-players gig - a\ncounterfeit chrisos - Sev notices that it is identical to the chrisos\nVodalus tossed him after the fight in the necropolis.\nObviously, not only was Vodalus' chrisos bogus (as was Vodalus' movement),\nbut we are shown that someone who came to see _Eschatology and Genesis_ got\na fake chrisos from the same source as Vodalus, and passed it to Talos.\nWhat is the significance of this, in a scene Sev admitted was a\nflash-forward out of time sequence with that point in his narrative? And did\nthe company receive chrisos at any time other than from the House Absolute -\ni.e. was the old Autarch's court passing out counterfeit coins? We can of\ncourse see an illustration of what we have already been told expressly, that\na covert extralegal connection between the Vodalarii and the House Absolute\nexisted, but is there something else here?\n\n(Citadel XXX) After she and the Green Man rescue Severian from the Ascians,\nAgia releases him instead of torturing him to death, quite casually\nconsoling herself with the certainty that \"in the end you will come into my\nhands again\". Even more interesting, Agia apparently did not free Sev only\nbecause the Green Man was present to ensure she did (how would he compel\nher?). The Green man states that \"the woman... would have _freed_ you\nwithout my help\".\nWhy is Agia so sure she will get hold of Sev again? Why is she content to\nwait for that occasion rather than seizing the moment? (maybe she was hoping\nhe would fail and the Hierogrammates would castrate him? But why let them\nhave all the fun?)\nDoes her threat/prophecy in any sense come to pass? (her aquastor, at the\nbattle before Tzadkiel's throne? But from her viewpoint, this took place\nbefore the events of _Citadel_, indeed before Briah existed)\n\n(Urth XXXII ) As Severian boards the _Alcyone_, he thinks he recognizes a\n\"sun-browned\" deckhand, but cannot recall who he resembled. Who WAS that\ntanned man?\n\nFinally, I have some difficulty with the alleged love affair of Thecla and\nSeverian while she was in the Tower. Is Sev being an \"unreliable narrator\"\nwhen he describes, only much later and after subsuming her memories, their\ncarryings-on? Gurloes, you might recall, (Shadow VII) detected Sev's\nattraction to her from the very first and warned him not to get heavily\ninvolved. One would think apprentice Severian, otherwise terrfied of\nGurloes, might be warned off. One would think that Severian's visits with\nThecla would be closely monitored, too much so to allow for more than at\nmost very brief furtive naughtiness, which the scenes actually there in\nShadow suggest. Could the \"memories\" of more relaxed and leisurely trysts,\nrelated in the later volumes, be fantasies augmented by his shared memories\nof her, concocted from both their desires?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2001-04-22T18:05:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: One more New Sun IAQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Talarican\" \nSubject: One more New Sun IAQ\nDate: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 09:18:42 -0400" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Into the relative quiet reigning on the Urth list at present, I interject\nwhat I anticipate will be the final installment of BNS IAQ's. Hopefully\nthese will turn out to be one of the better production runs. Enjoy.\n- The Mad Exultant" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, Mitc...er...Talarican, are you compiling these IAQ's somewhere?\nHow can it be the \"final installment\"? Because your list is hardly\nexhaustive. I could add some more, as doubtless could others here.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For that matter, the purpose of the Wall is somewhat problematical, in\nspite\nof Jonas' hints[snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I agree wrt your objections about the practicality of the Wall. Indeed,\nthe only good purpose for it that I can see was to prevent the very\ninundation that it apparently didn't, but should have." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Urth XXXII ) As Severian boards the _Alcyone_, he thinks he recognizes a\n\"sun-browned\" deckhand, but cannot recall who he resembled. Who WAS that\ntanned man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " No doubt someone will suggest it was himself, and possibly it was. Along\nthis line, here is one of my own IAQs, from two chapters later. Who was the\n\"greasy, close-faced woman they said was the ship's cook\" who was present at\nthe table in the inn in Saltus for Sev's \"last supper\" prior to his arrest?\nShe showed up again three chapters after that, among the group who visited\nhim in his cell to hear his sermon on the dying of the Old Sun and the\ncoming of the New Sun, Sev's account drawn largely from his knowledge of\nTalos's play. Sev's tale was overheard by Canog, who took notes for the book\nhe would write, which became the basis for Talos's play, which became the\nbasis for Sev's tale, which ...but I digress, and anyway, I've brought up\nthe dubious authorship of this uncreated story before, to no avail.\n\nRoy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2001-05-09T14:02:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) One more New Sun IAQ", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 22/04/2001 14:18:42 Talarican wrote:\n(Shadow XXXV) As the players approach the Piteous Gate, Dr. Talos points out\nthe abundant undeveloped meadowlands still available for use within the\nWall. Baldanders shakes his head and replies \"They were not for the growing\nof Nessus\". What did Baldanders believe they were for? What WERE they for,\nthen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take Baldander's \"were\" as deliberate, he's talking of the past. Then add what\nwe know of Nessus growing upstream - quite normal for urban areas with poor\nsanitary planning where the wealthy who can afford to build do so where the\nwaters are less poluted, but an event of the (relatively) low-tech society much\nlater than that which built the wall originally. Plus the human tendancy to\nsymetry along with hints about the early shape of Nessus.\n\nWhat I get from all this odd arithmatic is that by design the wall was to\nenclose not only the space port and city but also sufficient hinterland to feed\nthe population. Think like the outer wall around the farm land at Minas Tirith.\n\nSo if originally there was both city and farm land with the wall the\ncontemporary reason for not building nearer than the Last Inn would be to\nmaintain a cordon or killing ground for clear fire from the Autarch's soldiers\nhoused within the wall. This suggests that the emphasis has changed from\ndefending Nessus to containing it and its population.\n\nNow, absolute off the wall speculation this but: the wall is circular is it not?\nI can recall no hint at all in the text and it's likely that non exists but\nmight it originally have supported some hemispherical \"force field\" defence? In\na society that could build it and which had functional space ships a defense\nagainst ground attack - however impressive a defense - seems incomplete and\ninadequate.\n\nMatthew" } ] } ] }