{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2614", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2614, "subject": "Digest urth.v030.n100", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-04-30T08:42:20+00:00", "last": "2001-04-30T16:29:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-04-30T08:42:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) RE: Digest urth.v030.n100", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote:\nAu contraire: I am in fact too sophisticated _not_ to be offended\nby religious bigotry, whether it favors or disfavors mine own\nbelief-system. I find, e.g., books like \"This Present Darkness\"\nquite as intolerable as, I suspect, I should find the Pullmans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Alga responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You might not find them so intolerable. He's not drum-beating, he's\njust presenting the Gnostic PoV. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As well as (say) PKD does in the VALIS triplet? (Of course, \nPKD's gnosticism is as quirky as anything else PKD wrote...) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering the millions of reams of printed paper that have shored\nthe other side, I think that's fair enough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Millions? Billions. Sagans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting, too. And, man, does he do suspense well!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'm convinced to (at least) give them a try. Probably\nbe a while (I'm in the middle of half-a-dozen other things\nright now, including the very bogged-down COMMEDIA, a \nSayers novel, CSL's volume of OHEL...)\n\nBut I suppose I ought to at least ask what you mean by \n\"presenting the Gnostic PoV.\" In the sense of showing the\nGnostic worldview? Fine. In the sense of \"the evile Xtians \nsuppressed the good and noble Gnostics?\" I have no more \ntolerance for that than I do for \"the evile Xtians suppressed \nthe good and noble Wiccans,\" where the \"Wiccans\" (at least as\npresented) are almost entirely a 20th-century invention, or\n\"those horrible Muslims suppressed the good and noble Christians\nand Jews,\" equally fictitious. (If you haven't caught the \npattern here, it's the \"good and noble\" far more than the\n\"suppressed\" that I regard as an outright lie.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His villainess, Mrs. Coulter, starts out, you think, as a\nfairly standard Morgan la Fay-type heavy, but she gets a\nlot more complex as she goes along. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, good. The ability to portray evil characters is all too \nrare in fantasists -- Tolkien is redeemed here only by Gollum \n(and to some extent Saruman); Lewis' villains, except for \nScrewtape (and Weston, but only in _Perelandra_) are hideous \nstrawmen; and don't get me started about Donaldson. The \nproblem seems to be that, once the fantasist has characterized \na character (in his own mind -- and the \"his\" is deliberate) \nas \"evil,\" he then places that character beyond all sympathy, \nand so all hope of sympathetic or realistic portrayal. \n\nThe alternative seems to be to have no conflict between \"good\"\nand \"evil\" but rather between competing interests -- this is\nfor example the solution we find in Eddison's Zimiamvia books\n(but not really in WORM), and to a lesser extent in Martin's\ncurrent \"Ice and Fire\" epic (wherein one faction is portrayed \nwith their own PoV but remains, nonetheless, pretty much beyond \nthe pale of the readers' -- and, I suspect, the writer's --\nsympathies).\n\nAs for Wolfe (he said, desperately attempting to drag the\nconversation back to something like topic) ... H'mmmm ... I \nthought Typhon was pretty much a caricature in the NS books, \nbut LONG and SHORT seem to have refurbished him rather \nseverely, albeit offstage. Is there a single flat villain \nto be found in Wolfe?\n\n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is \"This Present Darkness?\" Is that one of those\n\"Christian best-sellers?\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Bad CSL imitation -- in fact, very specifically, bad\nimitation THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH, which is probably CSL's\nsingle weakest novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you read it? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not all of it. Only up to the loud bang where it hit the\nwall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm gonna read one a them thangs one a these days just\nouta curiosity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably the best of the bunch would be JOSHUA, by a guy\nnamed Girzione.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John-Paul Wellcoat", "address": "john-paul.wellcoat at omgroup.com" }, "date": "2001-04-30T16:29:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) RE: Digest urth.v030.n100", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'and don't get me started about Donaldson'\nJust keen to learn what it is exactly that you would wish of the author when it\ncomes\nto portrayal of evil characters. especially concerning Donaldson (Seeing as I am\nreading his gap series at the minute)\nIt must come down to which side you are on in the end. You can't honestly belief\nin an inherently evil being.\nThey just don't stand up in life.\n\n\n|--------+----------------------->\n| | \"Dan'l |\n| | Danehy-Oakes\"|\n| | |\n| | |\n| | 30/04/01 |\n| | 16:42 |\n| | Please |\n| | respond to |\n| | urth |\n| | |\n|--------+----------------------->" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------------|\n | |\n | To: urth at lists1.ba.best.com |\n | cc: (bcc: John-Paul Wellcoat/OMT/OMGROUP) |\n | Subject: (urth) RE: Digest urth.v030.n100 |\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------|" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote:\nAu contraire: I am in fact too sophisticated _not_ to be offended\nby religious bigotry, whether it favors or disfavors mine own\nbelief-system. I find, e.g., books like \"This Present Darkness\"\nquite as intolerable as, I suspect, I should find the Pullmans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Alga responded:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You might not find them so intolerable. He's not drum-beating, he's\njust presenting the Gnostic PoV." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As well as (say) PKD does in the VALIS triplet? (Of course,\nPKD's gnosticism is as quirky as anything else PKD wrote...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering the millions of reams of printed paper that have shored\nthe other side, I think that's fair enough." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Millions? Billions. Sagans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting, too. And, man, does he do suspense well!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'm convinced to (at least) give them a try. Probably\nbe a while (I'm in the middle of half-a-dozen other things\nright now, including the very bogged-down COMMEDIA, a\nSayers novel, CSL's volume of OHEL...)\n\nBut I suppose I ought to at least ask what you mean by\n\"presenting the Gnostic PoV.\" In the sense of showing the\nGnostic worldview? Fine. In the sense of \"the evile Xtians\nsuppressed the good and noble Gnostics?\" I have no more\ntolerance for that than I do for \"the evile Xtians suppressed\nthe good and noble Wiccans,\" where the \"Wiccans\" (at least as\npresented) are almost entirely a 20th-century invention, or\n\"those horrible Muslims suppressed the good and noble Christians\nand Jews,\" equally fictitious. (If you haven't caught the\npattern here, it's the \"good and noble\" far more than the\n\"suppressed\" that I regard as an outright lie.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His villainess, Mrs. Coulter, starts out, you think, as a\nfairly standard Morgan la Fay-type heavy, but she gets a\nlot more complex as she goes along." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, good. The ability to portray evil characters is all too\nrare in fantasists -- Tolkien is redeemed here only by Gollum\n(and to some extent Saruman); Lewis' villains, except for\nScrewtape (and Weston, but only in _Perelandra_) are hideous\nstrawmen; and don't get me started about Donaldson. The\nproblem seems to be that, once the fantasist has characterized\na character (in his own mind -- and the \"his\" is deliberate)\nas \"evil,\" he then places that character beyond all sympathy,\nand so all hope of sympathetic or realistic portrayal.\n\nThe alternative seems to be to have no conflict between \"good\"\nand \"evil\" but rather between competing interests -- this is\nfor example the solution we find in Eddison's Zimiamvia books\n(but not really in WORM), and to a lesser extent in Martin's\ncurrent \"Ice and Fire\" epic (wherein one faction is portrayed\nwith their own PoV but remains, nonetheless, pretty much beyond\nthe pale of the readers' -- and, I suspect, the writer's --\nsympathies).\n\nAs for Wolfe (he said, desperately attempting to drag the\nconversation back to something like topic) ... H'mmmm ... I\nthought Typhon was pretty much a caricature in the NS books,\nbut LONG and SHORT seem to have refurbished him rather\nseverely, albeit offstage. Is there a single flat villain\nto be found in Wolfe?\n\n[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is \"This Present Darkness?\" Is that one of those\n\"Christian best-sellers?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Bad CSL imitation -- in fact, very specifically, bad\nimitation THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH, which is probably CSL's\nsingle weakest novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you read it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not all of it. Only up to the loud bang where it hit the\nwall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm gonna read one a them thangs one a these days just\nouta curiosity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably the best of the bunch would be JOSHUA, by a guy\nnamed Girzione.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] } ] }