# Copperhead: The Fall *The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 10 May 2001* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Michael Straight *10 May 2001, 09:11* > On Thu, 10 May 2001, Michael Straight wrote: > Still, that's a big problem - Cain and Abel, and murder particularly, are > definitely post-Fall, so it's hard to see how Adam (and Eden) could still > be glorified and unfallen if Cain has already killed Abel. The explanation came to me right after I hit send. Lilith and Adam and Eden are post fall, as shown by Cain having already killed Abel. It's just that, even after the Fall, it took a while for humans to lose their grandeur -- Adam lived for 930 years, and his children had long lifespans for generations (up until the Flood, leading some Creation Scientists to theorize that the Flood came from a "firmament" of water that had surrounded the Earth, shielding people from UV and other harmful radiation, explaining the longer lifetimes). And Eden after the Fall remains a glorious place that must be guarded by an angel with a flaming sword. So the Fall has occured, but Adam is still more glorious than those of us who have never talked with God face-to-face in the cool of the morning, and Eden is still the home of barking trees and sounding rams horns. -Rostrum ---