{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2664", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2664, "subject": "Digest urth.v030.n119", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-05-24T15:56:53+00:00", "last": "2001-05-25T16:58:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "akt at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2001-05-24T15:56:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Digest urth.v030.n119", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Said the Bear:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:51 2001-05-24, alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"An Almost Christian Fantasy,\" the review by Daniel Maloney in the\nCatholic journal First Things of Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy\nis\nup. Intelligent analysis, I think, not just religious but literary.\nhttp://print.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0105/reviews/moloney.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for that, alga! I finished the series just last night,\nand I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one who didn't consider\nit entirely satisfactory. The plot of the third book is somewhat\nloose, but with so much wonderful writing and emotional power I\ncould overlook that, provided there was a proper resolution.\nI couldn't understand why the Dust stopped flowing away just\nbecause of Will and Lyra's love; it feels right emotionally, but\nat least a hint of a rationale would have been nice. Her prophesied\ndestiny as some sort of Eve comes to absolutely nothing that I could\nsee. As for them being parted, well! That was just horrible. It really\nupset me. Why did he have to do that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, boy. I have thought of this so many different ways, since I am\ntrying to figure out a way of writing about this series that sticks to a\npoint, and of course Dust sort of has to be the point. Pullman is\ncurrently writing a short \"reference book\" to be called -The Book of\nDust-, but I see no particular reason to wait for him. Virtually\neveryone--no, strike that, every grown-up person--feels the failure of\nthe third book. We're trying to make it work, and I am specifically\nstruggling with how to explain Dust (and the Specters) in terms of\nManichaean Light and Dark and a logical world-view (pretty damned hard\nto do when there are infinite worlds).\n\nBut let me tell you something really fascinating. Kids *love* the third\nbook. Crowley told me it was the favorite of his daughter Hazel (just\n14). And today I found the \"fan fiction\" site of His Dark Materials.\nThis is something for you grown men to take a gander at, all of us who\nthink we're so smart, in fact. Of 60 entries on these pages, fully 55\nexplore, in Borski-esque variants, the fate of Will and Lyra, some in\npoetry. I have to assume that most of them are written by girls about\nHazel's age. Not a single poem about Iorak Birninsen! (Though elsewhere\nSerafina Pekkala has something of a fan club--include me in; I'll be a\ncharter member of the Mrs. Coulter club, too.)\n\n\nhttp://www.fanfiction.net/index.fic?action=story-listfiles&Page=1&Catego\nryID=632&sort=DatePublished&GenreID=0&LanguageID=1\n\nBear, the Eve thing is very difficult to figure in a truthful, honorable\nway. I waver, but mostly I feel that it was a mistake on Pullman's part,\nboth in a moral and in a religious sense. The kids seem to adore it in a\ntearjerker way. Is that because my daemon has settled and theirs have\nnot?\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2001-05-25T16:58:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v030.n119", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 20:56 2001-05-24, algawrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Virtually\neveryone--no, strike that, every grown-up person--feels the failure of\nthe third book. We're trying to make it work, and I am specifically\nstruggling with how to explain Dust (and the Specters) in terms of\nManichaean Light and Dark and a logical world-view (pretty damned hard\nto do when there are infinite worlds)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[waves to Copperhead thread!]\nIt doesn't need to be Manichean, does it? The Authority doesn't\nhave the power of Creation that he claims, after all. The Spectres\nare kind-of believable, as is Dust leaking into the abyss through\nthe windows. I'm not sure a strictly logical world-view is helpful,\nbecause then you might wonder whether Dust could cross between worlds\n(and if so, how) or if not, why the window from the land of the dead\ncouldn't open onto a world without intelligent inhabitants. It will\nbe interesting to see how the Book of Dust copes with all this!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But let me tell you something really fascinating. Kids *love* the third\nbook." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a considerable relief, as my son has just started reading\nNorthern Lights (the UK name for The Golden Compass). I've been very\nworried, since it hit me so hard. And he isn't reading it at bedtime\n(I'm reading him Mrs Pepperpot stories! How's that for a contrast?\nChildren are wonderfully versatile), so the night-ghasts will probably\nbe okay. I found the Spectres too abstract to be properly frightening.\nI was much more worried by the Harpy (he has a very vivid imagination)\nbut the story takes care of her very nicely indeed. Dodgy plot or not,\nit is still an exceedingly good book. I was pleasantly surprised, in\nfact, after opinions voiced here - I liked the mulefa, for example." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bear, the Eve thing is very difficult to figure in a truthful, honorable\nway. I waver, but mostly I feel that it was a mistake on Pullman's part,\nboth in a moral and in a religious sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another loose end is the super-Dickensian-and-Wolfian-put-together\ndegree of coincidence required for the plot of The Subtle Knife.\nWill just happens to find that window? Then happens to walk into\nthe one room in a deserted city in the particular world where Lyra\nis hiding? Clearly not coincidence, but I don't recall anything being\nsaid about it - apart from them remarking on the unlikelihood! It must\nbe something like the shaman summoning Lee, or Bilbo finding the Ring,\nbut it would be nice to be told." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The kids seem to adore it in a\ntearjerker way. Is that because my daemon has settled and theirs have\nnot?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect it's because they don't have as much experience of loss\nas adults, and don't feel the full force of it. It *is* enjoyable\nin a tear-jerking way, and I would have loved it if it had come in\nthe middle of the book but they got together at the end. There's\nthat tantalising hint about imagining yourself into other worlds\n- not the same thing as pretending, we are told explicitly, and\nthe angels employ it as a practical means of travel - but it isn't\nfollowed up. Will is told he knows someone who can help him with it,\nand he doesn't even ask who it is, though it could hardly be anybody\nelse but Mary. That's confirmed by Pullman himself at the readerville\nsite Adam posted, in the message that breaks off \"She is the one who\nwill tell him how to imagine his way into o\". It's quite an interesting\nsite. He says that Will and Lyra have to be parted, and some readers\nagree that it brings closure to the story. It certainly avoids him\nhaving to worry about the consequences of traffic between the worlds.\nLeaving everything more or less as it was before, only better, is\ncharacteristic of children's fantasy [one more reason to admire Alan\nGarner's _The Moon of Gomrath_, which doesn't]. Here I think it serves\nthe didactic purpose of encouraging us to build the republic of heaven\nwhere *we* are: it isn't Will and Lyra who would spend all their time\nsearching for a second window - they would have a private one, hidden\nin the back of a wardrobe - it is us.\n\nHey, I convinced myself!\nBut I'm still cross.\n\nSpectacled Bear." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "eli+", "address": "eli+ at gs211.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-05-25T15:22:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Digest urth.v030.n119", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Spectacled Bear wrote:\nAt 20:56 2001-05-24, alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But let me tell you something really fascinating. Kids *love* the third\nbook." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting. I wonder whether the difference is that they don't feel\nthe flaws that many adults do, or that they feel certain strengths more\nstrongly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Leaving everything more or less as it was before, only better, is\ncharacteristic of children's fantasy [one more reason to admire Alan\nGarner's _The Moon of Gomrath_, which doesn't]. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Retargeting a bit, what about leaving everything more or less like it is\nin our world, whether it started that way or not? Oooh, this can get my\ndander up, and it's not just children's fantasy either. Some authors\nwrite as if I can't bring anything home from the book unless it reads\nright up to my door, and slams the door behind me to boot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here I think it serves\nthe didactic purpose of encouraging us to build the republic of heaven\nwhere *we* are: it isn't Will and Lyra who would spend all their time\nsearching for a second window - they would have a private one, hidden\nin the back of a wardrobe - it is us.\n\nHey, I convinced myself!\nBut I'm still cross." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That didactic purpose I can appreciate, but he weakens it by forcing the\nstory. He tried to set up \"Cold Equations\"-style plot mechanism which\nthreatens global disaster to _coerce_ Will and Lyra's decision -- rather\nthan letting us see what their own wisdom leads them to decide. That's\na lesser story.\n\nI remember that my reading experience when I hit this was not one bit\nhigh-mindedly didactified, but was on the same mechanical level as his\nsetup: but but but the Dust ecology is not at risk, because brief\nopenings don't leak on the scale of the natural influx we've seen, and\ncreating Specters is no problem with a little help, since the angel has\nsaid she can deal with those. If it had occurred to Will and Lyra that\nthe obstacles were not absolute, they could have gone on to ask more\ninteresting questions: what if everybody did it? are we special, to\njustify it? And the question Pullman didn't dare to ask them: even if\nwe can, should we?\n\nIn a way, he did quite right. I don't know that they would have\nanswered the way he wanted. The honest story, I want to call it though\nI really shouldn't, might be a tragedy." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " Eli Brandt | eli+ at cs.cmu.edu | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/" } ] } ] }