{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2666", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2666, "subject": "Pullman review, Dust, Manichaeanism (SPOILERS)", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-05-25T18:03:53+00:00", "last": "2001-05-30T11:33:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-05-25T18:03:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: Pullman review, Dust, Manichaeanism (SPOILERS)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "on 5/24/01 2:56 PM, Alice Turner at akt at attglobal.net wrote:\nAt 18:51 2001-05-24, alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"An Almost Christian Fantasy,\" the review by Daniel Maloney in the\nCatholic journal First Things of Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy\nis\nup. Intelligent analysis, I think, not just religious but literary.\nhttp://print.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0105/reviews/moloney.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for pointing this out. I agree it's a very perceptive review. I\nthink Moloney has put his finger on the basic flaws of the ending, though\nhe's wrong to state as a definite fact that Will and Lyra do no more than\nkiss. (I'd also dispute his claim that atheists can't write fantasy, but\nthat's another issue.)\n\nInteresting that such a sympathetic review appears in First Things, which I\nthink of (possibly mistakenly) as quite conservative, both theologically and\nsocially. Moloney does say that if Pullman's anti-Christian propaganda had\nbeen presented more effectively, then he would have advised parents to keep\ntheir children away from the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, boy. I have thought of this so many different ways, since I am\ntrying to figure out a way of writing about this series that sticks to a\npoint, and of course Dust sort of has to be the point. Pullman is\ncurrently writing a short \"reference book\" to be called -The Book of\nDust-, but I see no particular reason to wait for him. Virtually\neveryone--no, strike that, every grown-up person--feels the failure of\nthe third book. We're trying to make it work, and I am specifically\nstruggling with how to explain Dust (and the Specters)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dust doesn't seem to hard to explain, at least in broad outline; in fact,\nPullman pretty much lays it out in HDM, especially TAS. Dust is matter that\nhas begun to become conscious of itself (TAS, 31), matter and spirit being\none in Pullman's metaphysics (TSK, pb, 249) Dust is both produced by\nconscious beings (TAS, 491) and sustains consciousness in these beings\n(don't have a specific page reference at the moment, but I clearly recall it\nbeing stated that if the Dust goes out of the universe so will\nconsciousness). I'm not so clear about the Specters; in particular, their\nbeing created whenever the Knife is used seems contrived by Pullman to keep\nWill and Lyra apart. (And why, after presenting his Church as evil for\nsuppressing scientific investigation, does he throw in this\nman-was-not-meant-to-tamper-with-the-unknown stuff?)\n\n(On the subject of Dust, I think it was a mistake of Pullman's to identify\nDust with dark matter. It seems that a lot of fantasy writers whose stories\nare set in, or cross over with, our world give in to the temptation to\nidentify their MacGuffin with whatever unexplained scientific phenomenon is\ncurrently au courant. Not only does this mix genres, it will date their\nbooks horribly when the phenomenon is discovered either to have a perfectly\nmundane explanation, or worse yet, not to exist after all.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in terms of\nManichaean Light and Dark and a logical world-view (pretty damned hard\nto do when there are infinite worlds)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you're referring to when you talk of Manichaeanism.\nThere's no evil Supreme Being in Pullman's books, any more than there is a\ngood Supreme Being. The Authority is evil, but only in the sense that\nHitler was evil, not in the sense of an evil Principle. And Pullman's\ncharacterization certainly isn't Manichaean, as you're undoubtedly aware;\nviz. the harpies, who have been evil and serving the Authority for thousands\nof years, but are converted to good (a darn sight too quickly, if you ask\nme).\n\nAnd Mani also posited a radical dualism between matter and spirit, something\nPullman rejects.\n\nIncidentally, for those interested in Gnosticism, I discovered a website on\nGnosticism called the Gnosis archive. It includes translations of the Nag\nHammadi writings and some of the Corpus Hermeticum, as well as a links page,\nand is maintained by believing Gnostics. It's at\nwww.webcom.com/~gnosis/welcome.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And today I found the \"fan fiction\" site of His Dark Materials.\n[...] Of 60 entries on these pages, fully 55\nexplore, in Borski-esque variants, the fate of Will and Lyra, some in\npoetry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Except that the fan fiction writers know they're making it up (sorry,\ncouldn't resist)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bear, the Eve thing is very difficult to figure in a truthful, honorable\nway. I waver, but mostly I feel that it was a mistake on Pullman's part,\nboth in a moral and in a religious sense. The kids seem to adore it in a\ntearjerker way. Is that because my daemon has settled and theirs have\nnot?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do your moral and religious objections refer to Will and Lyra's separation,\nor to the whole idea of Lyra being the new Eve, whose love for Will saves\nthe universe? If the latter, I agree that \"the Eve thing\" is very weak as a\nresolution to the plot (Pullman does provide a sort of explanation, though a\nweak one, on TAS p. 478), but it fits with the theme of innocence vs.\nexperience, a major theme of the book (though my sense is that it's not\ndeveloped as effectively as it could have been). The Church, identifying\nexperience with original sin, wants to keep everybody innocent. The Dust is\nattracted to experience, since the experienced--adults--are more conscious\nthan the innocent--children. This is why the Church thinks Dust is\nconnected to original sin, iirc. Pullman is in favor of experience, because\nit increases consciousness--an interesting reversal on the usual attitude in\nchildren's and young adult books that childhood = goodness and adulthood =\ncorruption (even if Pullman doesn't carry it through consistently: despite\nthe bad children in Cittagazze, most of the children in HDM are good and\nmost of the adults are either corrupted or at least morally ambiguous,\nthough there are some exceptions). So in choosing experience over innocence\n(without consciously realizing she is doing so), Lyra is coming down on the\nright side of the book's major dualism.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2001-05-30T11:33:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: Pullman review, Dust, Manichaeanism (SPOILERS)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 00:03 2001-05-26, Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 5/24/01 2:56 PM, Alice Turner at akt at attglobal.net wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 18:51 2001-05-24, alga wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "\"An Almost Christian Fantasy,\" the review by Daniel Maloney in the\nCatholic journal First Things of Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy\nis\nup. Intelligent analysis, I think, not just religious but literary.\nhttp://print.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0105/reviews/moloney.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for pointing this out. I agree it's a very perceptive review. I\nthink Moloney has put his finger on the basic flaws of the ending, though\nhe's wrong to state as a definite fact that Will and Lyra do no more than\nkiss." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And even more wrong to describe the moment as \"maudlin\" and \"banal\".\nWere he and I reading the same book?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Bear, the Eve thing is very difficult to figure in a truthful, honorable\nway. I waver, but mostly I feel that it was a mistake on Pullman's part,\nboth in a moral and in a religious sense. The kids seem to adore it in a\ntearjerker way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another reason for children to like this more than adults is that\nare are too young for the idea of lifelong commitment to appeal.\nWhich is more or less what you said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is that because my daemon has settled and theirs have\nnot?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Spectacled Bear." } ] } ] }