{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2717", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2717, "subject": "PEACE: Fool's Gold?", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2001-07-09T16:19:34+00:00", "last": "2001-07-09T21:18:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2001-07-09T16:19:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) PEACE: Fool's Gold?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was rereading the \"Gold\" chapter of PEACE, and in the light of the recent\ndiscussion of RttW, a disturbing suspicion came to me. Briefly, I suspect\nthat the conversations between Gold and Weer, or at least the second one,\nnever happened, but were invented by Weer.\n\nWhile this may seem a completely off-the-wall idea, there are a number of\nindicators pointing in this direction:\n\n1) Is it really likely that a world-class forger would be living in\nCassionsville, and then boast of his exploits to a man who has tried to\nexpose him?\n\n2) The unreliability of ostensibly factual accounts is a major theme of the\nchapter: there's the diary itself; the account of the encounter between Mrs.\nDoherty and Quantrill's gang (209, Harper hc), which seems to be an\nobjective third-person account, but turns out to be either an excerpt from\nthe diary or, more likely, Weer's improvisation on the passages read to him\nby Lois; Blaine's memories, which contradict Weer's; and Gold's claim that\nmany old books are actually forgeries (226).\n\n3) Gold refers to himself as \"an artist, shaping the past instead of the\nfuture,\" (231) which could apply equally well to Weer.\n\n4) The main plot of the chapter is a search for gold which turns out not to\nexist.\n\n5) Gold lives on Mulberry St. If you've read your Dr. Seuss, you'll\nremember that the narrator of AND TO THINK THAT I SAW IT ON MULBERRY STREET\nelaborated progressively more fantastic accounts of what he'd seen on that\nstreet.\n\nSo I suspect that the second conversation between Gold and Weer, and\npossibly the first one as well, was invented by Weer as an apologia for his\nown methodology in writing the manuscript of PEACE (which implies that he's\nlied elsewhere as well).\n\nFor that matter, the treasure hunt plot is itself implausible when you think\nabout it, not to say melodramatic: Lois pulls a gun on Weer, when nothing in\nher earlier behavior suggests she is likely to do this. Weer spots the gun\n(\"in a spot of moonlight\" (218), takes it from her, and sleeps with it under\nhis pillow, presumably in case she should return at night to take vengeance.\nWhen Sherry asks him about the gun, he tells her only that he's had it for a\ncouple of weeks and will get rid of it tomorrow, and this non-explanation\nseems to satisfy her. Moreover, the whole chapter draws heavily on the\nhardboiled detective genre, as I wrote earlier. To be sure, Smart's story\nin \"The Alchemist\" is equally melodramatic and implausible, and dependent\nupon literary/cinematic models, but that is presented as a story, while the\ntreasure hunt is presented as something that happened to Weer (the Doris\nstory is also told by someone else, and there is a hint that it's\nfictional).\n\nMake no mistake: I'm a believer in Dan'l's principle that a narrator should\nbe assumed to be reliable unless there's good reason to believe otherwise.\nBut in this case I think there are too many clues pointing in the opposite\ndirection.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2001-07-09T21:18:16+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Fool's Gold?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam wrote:\nI was rereading the \"Gold\" chapter of PEACE, and in the light of the recent\ndiscussion of RttW, a disturbing suspicion came to me. Briefly, I suspect\nthat the conversations between Gold and Weer, or at least the second one,\nnever happened, but were invented by Weer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would've sworn we kicked this one around, alot! But maybe it was just in\nprivate email with Roy.\n\nMy main question would be: why is Weer fabricating? What is the \"this\nreally happened\" that Weer is making more comfortable by fictionalizing?\nOr what is the necessary thing that didn't happen in real life that should\nhave happened (i.e., if this is wish fulfillment, then what specifically is\nthe wish and how does it heal the wisher)?\n\nFor examples: it might be that the main point is to have Gold make his \"you\nare an unquiet spirit\" speech. The gold hunt has so much of the Olivia\nspirit in it, it might be a continuation of her story . . . it certainly\nallows Weer to have incest-free relations with a woman rather like Olivia!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While this may seem a completely off-the-wall idea, there are a number of\nindicators pointing in this direction:\n\n1) Is it really likely that a world-class forger would be living in\nCassionsville, and then boast of his exploits to a man who has tried to\nexpose him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, except that both are conventions, too! And Gold probably thinks he\nhas blackmail material on Weer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) The unreliability of ostensibly factual accounts is a major theme of the\nchapter: there's the diary itself; the account of the encounter between Mrs.\nDoherty and Quantrill's gang (209, Harper hc), which seems to be an\nobjective third-person account, but turns out to be either an excerpt from\nthe diary or, more likely, Weer's improvisation on the passages read to him\nby Lois; Blaine's memories, which contradict Weer's; and Gold's claim that\nmany old books are actually forgeries (226)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but when Wolfe starts to insist =this= much, I start to wonder if\nsomehow, some magical way, more is true than we would normally believe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I suspect that the second conversation between Gold and Weer, and\npossibly the first one as well, was invented by Weer as an apologia for his\nown methodology in writing the manuscript of PEACE (which implies that he's\nlied elsewhere as well).\n\nFor that matter, the treasure hunt plot is itself implausible when you think\nabout it, not to say melodramatic: Lois pulls a gun on Weer, when nothing in\nher earlier behavior suggests she is likely to do this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Weer seems surprised, too. Is that because it is not something that Olivia\nwould do, and he has been seeing her through \"Olive tinted glasses\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Weer spots the gun\n(\"in a spot of moonlight\" (218), takes it from her, and sleeps with it under\nhis pillow, presumably in case she should return at night to take vengeance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Take vengeance for what? And if that unspoken crime, whatever it was,\ndidn't happen in the real world, then what is being covered by this action?\n\nThat is to say: we approach the episode as a dream, a dream in which the\ndreamer (Weer) is \"fixing\" things that happened in the real world to better\nsuit his own desires. The section is a Treasure Hunt: Lois is looking for\ngold (following a counterfeit map), Weer is looking for love (following a\ncounterfeit Olivia; bedding a counterfeit Lolita)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Sherry asks him about the gun, he tells her only that he's had it for a\ncouple of weeks and will get rid of it tomorrow, and this non-explanation\nseems to satisfy her. Moreover, the whole chapter draws heavily on the\nhardboiled detective genre, as I wrote earlier. To be sure, Smart's story\nin \"The Alchemist\" is equally melodramatic and implausible, and dependent\nupon literary/cinematic models, but that is presented as a story, while the\ntreasure hunt is presented as something that happened to Weer (the Doris\nstory is also told by someone else, and there is a hint that it's\nfictional)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, and the Doris story is the biggest head-scratcher of the novel,\nsince it is very difficult to see how it connects in any way, shape, or\nform, to Weer's life and/or the lie of Weer's life." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Make no mistake: I'm a believer in Dan'l's principle that a narrator should\nbe assumed to be reliable unless there's good reason to believe otherwise.\nBut in this case I think there are too many clues pointing in the opposite\ndirection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well yes, but it seems to me that your next stage, if you can accept that\nit is a lie, is to start looking for motive beyond the simple \"learning\nthat he is dead\" (or not: maybe that really is the answer to all questions\nabout PEACE).\n\nHere's another quick one: FEAR and LOVE. It may be that the whole point of\nthe cold house prank is to show how Weer is in fear of the other person (a\nvengeful ghost) who seems to be inside the empty house with him in the\nframetale. In the final page, in one reading at least, the other person is\nrevealed to be Olivia, the loved one (whose death was so crushing to him).\n(Thus: Weer is dead; yet death is an illusion.)\n\nIn fact, wait a minute: it is \"simple,\" but it is obviously very central,\nvery important, both that Weer is dead and is resisting this knowledge (for\na number of reasons--because it is a difficult thing to accept under any\ncondition , and it doesn't seem to be whatever it was he was expecting,\nor as we were saying before, \"If this is =dead=, then what is death?\").\n\nSo the meta-answer is something like \"Weer is getting used to being dead\nand the fact that death, as he envisioned it throughout his life, does not\nreally exist, because in this state he finds he does not have a cessation\nof being, only a partial freedom from physical existence.\"\n\nThe next meta-answer, also simple but I think also important, is something\nlike \"Weer spent perhaps too much of his life reading books rather than\nliving life directly, and as a result his afterlife experience is a journey\nlike that of Don Quixote/Walter Mitty/Gumby; as he experiences his own\nAMERICAN BOOK OF THE DEAD he cobbles together a text from the various texts\nhe read and loved throughout his life, texts which, ultimately, might have\nlittle or no relation to \"real\" history, but intimate relation to the\nessential dream history (his psyche, his spirit, his whatchamacallit); his\nis an apology (or a working out, or a therapy, or a regurgitation) for\nhaving read too much.\"\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nHas Moved To\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] } ] }