{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2741", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2741, "subject": "Pullman Again", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-07-30T16:42:03+00:00", "last": "2001-08-02T14:38:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2001-07-30T16:42:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pullman Again", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, so based on the discussion here I picked up a copy of \"The Golden\nCompass\" and finished it last night, and have drawn two equal and opposite\nconclusions:\n\n1. This is a brilliant novel.\n2. This is a lousy fantasy novel.\n\nMore detail may perhaps be required.\n\nIt is a marvellous _novel_. The characters and action are just plain\noverwhelming.\nThe end of Chapter Two in particular, which pulls the rug totally out from\nunder\nthe reader's feet, but in such a _gentle_ way (\"... because they were both\nold,\nand they were both anxious\") utterly blew me away. This man can write.\n\nBut he hasn't a clue about the logic of fantasy, at the small or at the\nlarge level.\n\nAt the small level there are things like the naming of names. \"Daemon.\"\nOkay, I \nunderstand that it's supposed to come from the Greek _daimonion_ and really\nonly\nmeans \"spirit,\" and that it's the person's soul (the way the armour is the\nbear's\nsoul). But there's no _reason_ for calling them daemons; it's just an\nin-yer-face\nchoice to irritate easily-irritated Christians. Ditto for \"experimental\ntheology\";\nit is neither, and the words just mislead.\n\nOn a larger scale: does anyone, _can_ anyone, believe that in a world this \ndifferent -- where every human has an externalized animus/anima, where bears\nare sentient, etc. -- the history of the world would be _similar_ enough\nthat\nsomeone called John Calvin would become something called Pope of something\ncalled the Catholic Church? (I set aside, as irrelevant Christian-baiting\nthe\nnature of \"the Church\" in this world.) \n\nThe logic of fantasy just isn't there, and irritates me far more than the\nreligious whomping.\n\nNonetheless... it's a cracking good book. I just wish Pullman knew something\n\nabout fantasy; then it could have been a _great_ book.\n\n--Dan'l" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "pei047 at attglobal.net" }, "date": "2001-07-31T12:04:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pullman again", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Said Dan'l re =The Golden Compass=:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he hasn't a clue about the logic of fantasy, at the small or at\nthe\nlarge level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that, with a real writer, it's quite so cut-and-dried.\n(Most writers of commercial fantasy are not, by my definition, \"real\"\nwriters; Pullman, otoh, most certainly is.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the small level there are things like the naming of names." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Daemon.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, I\nunderstand that it's supposed to come from the Greek _daimonion_ and\nreally\nonly\nmeans \"spirit,\" and that it's the person's soul (the way the armour is\nthe\nbear's\nsoul). But there's no _reason_ for calling them daemons; it's just an\nin-yer-face\nchoice to irritate easily-irritated Christians. Ditto for\n\"experimental\ntheology\";\nit is neither, and the words just mislead." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can't you accept that he is, at one level, joking? And at another being\ndeliberately provocative? This is quite okay by me, more so than\nMadeleine l'Engel maundering on about mitochondria and God in a rather\nbetter known fantasy series for children. Pullman is quite genuinely\n(imo) repelled by the efforts of a lot of classic fantasy to push\nreligious agenda, and he's deliberately countering it--but with humor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On a larger scale: does anyone, _can_ anyone, believe that in a world\nthis\ndifferent -- where every human has an externalized animus/anima, where\nbears\nare sentient, etc. -- the history of the world would be _similar_\nenough\nthat\nsomeone called John Calvin would become something called Pope of\nsomething\ncalled the Catholic Church? (I set aside, as irrelevant\nChristian-baiting\nthe\nnature of \"the Church\" in this world.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l, that is a *joke*. Maybe not the best joke in the world, but\nstill. It also serves another purpose--it's a signal that he is not\ntargeting Catholicism or Anglicanism or any other ism, that they're all\nin it together. It's the same impetus that causes him to cast witches as\ngood guys. (Not entirely, as you will see if you continue the series.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The logic of fantasy just isn't there, and irritates me far more than\nthe\nreligious whomping." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't irritate me. It is, perhaps, a reminder to the reader that he\nis reading a book, written by an author, who can do as he likes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nonetheless... it's a cracking good book. I just wish Pullman knew\nsomething\n\nabout fantasy; then it could have been a _great_ book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it just might be the best juvenile, and even the best fantasy of\nthe 20th century. Contenders, please? (Single books, only.)\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Spectacled Bear", "address": "spectacled.bear at pobox.com" }, "date": "2001-08-02T14:38:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Pullman Again", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 00:42 2001-07-31, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On a larger scale: does anyone, _can_ anyone, believe that in a world this \ndifferent -- where every human has an externalized animus/anima, where bears\nare sentient, etc. -- the history of the world would be _similar_ enough that\nsomeone called John Calvin would become something called Pope of something\ncalled the Catholic Church? (I set aside, as irrelevant Christian-baiting the\nnature of \"the Church\" in this world.) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Pullman actually acknowledges this point, and not only rejects\nthe criticism but makes a feature of it. I'm thinking of the scene where\nLyra sees the photo of the sledge in our world, identical in every detail\nto the one she has ridden, far more recently, in a different universe.\nThings are a lot more connected than she (or we) would expect. No attempt\nat explanation is made; it's simply beyond our present degree of knowledge.\nI can respect that a lot more than books that simply ignore the question.\n\nIn a multiverse where this sort of thing *did* work as we expect,\nany change will sooner or later alter the moment of conception of\na human being, a different sperm will win the race, and a different\nperson will be born. Only half of them will even be of the same sex\nas their counterparts. Histories will diverge quite rapidly thereafter.\n\nSpectacled Bear." } ] } ] }