Subject: (urth) Pullman Again

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 16:42:03 +0000

Okay, so based on the discussion here I picked up a copy of "The Golden
Compass" and finished it last night, and have drawn two equal and opposite
conclusions:

1. This is a brilliant novel.
2. This is a lousy fantasy novel.

More detail may perhaps be required.

It is a marvellous _novel_. The characters and action are just plain
overwhelming.
The end of Chapter Two in particular, which pulls the rug totally out from
under
the reader's feet, but in such a _gentle_ way ("... because they were both
old,
and they were both anxious") utterly blew me away. This man can write.

But he hasn't a clue about the logic of fantasy, at the small or at the
large level.

At the small level there are things like the naming of names. "Daemon."
Okay, I 
understand that it's supposed to come from the Greek _daimonion_ and really
only
means "spirit," and that it's the person's soul (the way the armour is the
bear's
soul). But there's no _reason_ for calling them daemons; it's just an
in-yer-face
choice to irritate easily-irritated Christians. Ditto for "experimental
theology";
it is neither, and the words just mislead.

On a larger scale: does anyone, _can_ anyone, believe that in a world this 
different -- where every human has an externalized animus/anima, where bears
are sentient, etc. -- the history of the world would be _similar_ enough
that
someone called John Calvin would become something called Pope of something
called the Catholic Church? (I set aside, as irrelevant Christian-baiting
the
nature of "the Church" in this world.) 

The logic of fantasy just isn't there, and irritates me far more than the
religious whomping.

Nonetheless... it's a cracking good book. I just wish Pullman knew something

about fantasy; then it could have been a _great_ book.

--Dan'l

*More Wolfe info & archive of this list at http://www.urth.net/urth/

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From: Alice Turner <pei047 at attglobal.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 12:04:49 +0000

> But he hasn't a clue about the logic of fantasy, at the small or at
the

I don't think that, with a real writer, it's quite so cut-and-dried.
(Most writers of commercial fantasy are not, by my definition, "real"
writers; Pullman, otoh, most certainly is.)

> it is neither, and the words just mislead.

Can't you accept that he is, at one level, joking? And at another being
deliberately provocative? This is quite okay by me, more so than
Madeleine l'Engel maundering on about mitochondria and God in a rather
better known fantasy series for children. Pullman is quite genuinely
(imo) repelled by the efforts of a lot of classic fantasy to push
religious agenda, and he's deliberately countering it--but with humor.

> nature of "the Church" in this world.)

Dan'l, that is a *joke*. Maybe not the best joke in the world, but
still. It also serves another purpose--it's a signal that he is not
targeting Catholicism or Anglicanism or any other ism, that they're all
in it together. It's the same impetus that causes him to cast witches as
good guys. (Not entirely, as you will see if you continue the series.)

> The logic of fantasy just isn't there, and irritates me far more than
the

It doesn't irritate me. It is, perhaps, a reminder to the reader that he
is reading a book, written by an author, who can do as he likes.

> about fantasy; then it could have been a _great_ book.

I think it just might be the best juvenile, and even the best fantasy of
the 20th century. Contenders, please? (Single books, only.)

-alga

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From: Spectacled Bear <spectacled.bear at pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:38:51 +0000

At 00:42 2001-07-31, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
...
>are sentient, etc. -- the history of the world would be _similar_ enough that
>called the Catholic Church? (I set aside, as irrelevant Christian-baiting the

I think Pullman actually acknowledges this point, and not only rejects
the criticism but makes a feature of it. I'm thinking of the scene where
Lyra sees the photo of the sledge in our world, identical in every detail
to the one she has ridden, far more recently, in a different universe.
Things are a lot more connected than she (or we) would expect. No attempt
at explanation is made; it's simply beyond our present degree of knowledge.
I can respect that a lot more than books that simply ignore the question.

In a multiverse where this sort of thing *did* work as we expect,
any change will sooner or later alter the moment of conception of
a human being, a different sperm will win the race, and a different
person will be born. Only half of them will even be of the same sex
as their counterparts. Histories will diverge quite rapidly thereafter.

Spectacled Bear.