{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2783", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2783, "subject": "Gene Wolfe's favorite Nero Wolfe novels", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2001-08-15T15:47:25+00:00", "last": "2001-08-17T00:28:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2001-08-15T15:47:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Gene Wolfe's favorite Nero Wolfe novels", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's another bit of trivia that I've stumbled upon in correspondence with\nGene Wolfe. Maybe someone can use it as an inspiration to write about Gene\nWolfe and genre mysteries?\n\nGene Wolfe ranks the following as the best (not in any order):\nTOO MANY WOMEN\nBEFORE MIDNIGHT\nTHE LEAGUE OF FRIGHTENED MEN\nCHAMPAGNE FOR ONE\nTHE FINAL DEDUCTION\nIF DEATH EVER SLEPT\nPLOT IT YOURSELF\nTHE DOORBELL RANG\n\nHe ranks the worst as:\nTHE BLACK MOUNTAIN\nFER-DE-LANCE\n\nSome while ago I had the madcap notion of reading, for the first time, some\nNero Wolfe novels (all by Rex Stout, I hasten to add: Nero is the hero),\nand (here's the madcap part) I was going to read them in order of\npublication.\n\nWell! First one is FER-DE-LANCE, and no sir, I didn't think it was very\ngood. After a month or two, I read the next one, THE LEAGUE OF FRIGHTENED\nMEN, and it was much better! I mentioned this to Gene Wolfe and he gave me\nhis list.\n\n(I read a book of Nero Wolfe novellas, but they are too abrupt for me.)\nMost recently I found and read BEFORE MIDNIGHT, and yep, that's a good one.\n\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nHas Moved To\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-08-15T19:22:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's favorite Nero Wolfe novels", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm.. Wolfe's taste in Nero Wolfe sounds a lot like mine. I don't\nthink I've read BEFORE MIDNIGHT or TOO MANY WOMEN, though.\n\nI started a writeup on Wolfe & genre mystery (commenting on _PANDORA:\nBY HOLLY HOLLANDER) and sent a draft to Jonathan, but got sidetracked\nrather heavily (and my thesis expanding from comments by the narrator\nin IGJ was demolished by RTW).\n\nFor what it's worth, though, here's the start of that draft (unedited\nand rather annoyingly gushing):\n\nThe Mysteries of Gene Wolfe\n\n\tIt is likely that every serious reader of Gene Wolfe has, at\nsome point, stopped and considered the disturbing question: \"Am I\nbeing led down the garden path?\" Wolfe's labyrinthine puzzles and\nespecially his sometimes highly opaque short stories (\"Parkroads\" and\n\"A Solar Labyrinth\" are particularly suggestive but puzzling) can be\nfrustrating. Still, a great number of us are willing to put forth\nserious effort to \"solve\" the numerous mysteries presented in most of\nWolfe's fiction. What keeps Wolfe's readers digging for clues?\n\tThe extraordinary quality of the prose and the dazzling\ninvention and insight certainly contribute; we are willing to work for\nthe stories because the rewards are so large and because the quality\nof the writing makes the effort itself enjoyable. However, the\ngeneral confidence that the mysteries presented are, indeed, solvable\nis a product, in part, of an underlying approach in Wolfe's work: Gene\nWolfe uses the methods of the detective fiction genre to convince us\nthat there is, indeed, a light at the end of the tunnel.\n\t\nI. \"Slaves of Silver\" and \"The Rubber Bend\"\n\n\tOne of the most obvious indications that Wolfe is a fan of the\ngenre is that he has produced a number of stories and one novel that\nare indisputably detective fiction. Wolfe's most explicitly\nscience-fictional works often undermine, reconfigure, or reverse the\nstandard tropes of the genre; his detective stories are generally more\nconventional, and less significant (\"The Detective of Dreams\" is a\nmajor exception).\n\tThe simplest of these works are the two pastiches found in\nSTOREYS FROM THE OLD HOTEL, \"Slaves of Silver\" and \"The Rubber Bend.\"\nThe first is a fairly standard Sherlock Holmes pastiche with the\nparticular tweak being that the Watson figure, Westing, is a robot.\nThe title is possibly taken from \"Silver Blaze\" (one of the most\nfamous Holmes stories, thanks to the \"curious incident of the dog in\nthe night-time\"), and the story features a meeting between Westing and\nMarch B. Street (Wolfe's Holmes) that, as in Doyle's A STUDY IN\nSCARLET, results from the doctor's search for lodgings.\n\t\"The Rubber Bend\" is more convincing as evidence of Wolfe's\ninterest in the genre--as Wolfe points out in his introduction to\nSTOREYS FROM THE OLD HOTEL, almost every writer seems compelled to\nwrite a Sherlock Holmes pastiche at some point. The sequel brings in\nWolfe's \"favorite private eye\" [1], Nero Wolfe. Rex Stout's Nero\nWolfe mysteries are perennial favorites of the genre's fans, but\nconsiderably less well-known than Doyle's works. The title derives\nfrom Stout's 1936 book THE RUBBER BAND (originally titled TO KILL\nAGAIN), the third Nero Wolfe mystery. Like \"Slaves of Silver,\" \"The\nRubber Bend\" is a fairly minor, though quite enjoyable work,\nconsisting of a number of puns and amusing concepts stretched across\nthe standard framework of the science-fictional detective story.\nStructurally, these stories are very similar to the bulk of the\nSherlock Holmes short stories, with robots and time-travel replacing\nVictorian elements.\n\tWolfe dreamt of writing a series of these pastiches [1] and in\nan online chat session reflected that writing a Father Brown pastiche\nwould not be a bad idea [2]; although no further direct pastiches have\nappeared, the idea, as we will see, shaped one of his most significant\nworks.\n\nII. PANDORA BY HOLLY HOLLANDER (A NOVEL BY GENE WOLFE)\n\n\t\"Is this a historical novel?\" Holly Hollander imagines the\nreader asking, on the first page of the Foreword to PANDORA BY HOLLY\nHOLLANDER. \"Nope,\" she answers. Instead, it is a detective novel.\n\tOne of Gene Wolfe's best novels, PEACE, forces the reader to\ndiscover what genre it belongs to (only when it becomes apparent that\nPEACE is a ghost story do many of the pieces click into place).\nPANDORA BY HOLLY HOLLANDER doesn't explicitly state that it is a\nmystery story in the very beginning, but the first chapter ends with\nthe appearance of a mysterious box, reminiscent of the introduction of\na MacGuffin in many mysteries. This is a particularly common\nbeginning for mysteries targeted at a younger audience--a large number\nof the Nancy Drew, Hardy Boys, or Three Investigators mysteries\nrevolve around (and take their title from) a mysterious object,\nespecially one with hidden or secret contents.\n\tBy page 17 (of the Orb edition) the genre of the story should\nbe clear, barring a Lupine removal of the rug under the reader's feet:\na mysterious stranger on the bus turns out to be \"ALADDIN BLUE,\nCriminologist.\" No such reversal of expectations is forthcoming;\nPANDORA BY HOLLY HOLLANDER is, whatever else it may be, a detective\nstory.\n\tIt does break with convention in one interesting sense.\nPANDORA's narration by a would-be cynical teenaged girl would seem to\nplace it in the category of a Young Adult Mystery. PANDORA seems to\nbe a first-person version of a Nancy Drew mystery, modernized with the\nsensibilities of Holden Caulfield and the inclusion of topics not\nfound in the classic adolescent mysteries, such as murder and sex.\nHowever, in both the older and more recent YA Mysteries, the\nadolescent protagonist almost invariably solves the mystery. Adult\nhelpers are sometimes present, but only in a secondary role--in fact,\nthe adults are often used to emphasize the resourcefulness of the\nyoung detectives, in that older, more experienced sleuths fail where\nthe protagonists succeed. In PANDORA, though, as the title of chapter\n23 (\"How Blue Did the Job\") makes clear, it is the adult detective\n(another limping Gene Wolfe hero) who solves the mystery. Holly\nHollander is another Dr. Westing, a Watson figure with little role in\nthe actual detection. Aladdin Blue is really \"on the case\" before he\nmeets Holly, and so she cannot even be said to have brought him onto\nthe scene.\n\tPANDORA BY HOLLY HOLLANDER has a curious place among Gene\nWolfe's novels. It is probably the least read and discussed (other\nthan the early and, Wolfe must hope, forgotten, OPERATION ARES). It\nis not badly written, and includes some clever Chicago-related inside\njokes (\"Barton\" is presumably Barrington, where Wolfe lives), but\ndespite vague hints of hidden meanings, it appears to be a very\nstraightforward tale for Gene Wolfe. Some readers have suggested an\nunderlying allegory of kinds of love [3], but the evidence is weak,\nand the allegory, even if present, isn't very compelling. The points\nAladdin Blue makes about myth when discussing the box with Holly are\nfairly pedestrian shadows of themes explored elsewhere to great effect\nby Wolfe. Most damningly, if this is just a mystery, the mystery\nitself is quite predictable--many readers will guess that Holly's\nmother is the culprit midway through the book.\n\tThe book's existence does demonstrate Gene Wolfe's interest in\nthe detective fiction genre; he took the time to write a murder\nmystery. Holly's thoughts about detection in chapter 13 (\"How Me and\nBlue Deduced\") appear likely to be those of Wolfe as well. Holly\nmentions Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe, commenting that when people\nread mysteries \"they pick detectives they like best by peculiarities.\"\nShe elaborates: \"Nero Wolfe's fat, three points; Sherlock Holmes\nshoots dope, that's seven.\" One might add \"Holly Hollander is a\nteenage girl, two points; Aladdin Blue has a bum leg, that's six.\"\nMore importanly, she gives what would seem to be Gene Wolfe's approach\nto detection: \"look at the clues and think, now who would do that?\"\nThis is not very radical or unusual, but Wolfe's work in general\ninvites the reader to apply this approach to fiction.\n\tIn his introduction to Lafferty's EPISODES OF THE ARGO, Wolfe\ndiscusses readers who refuse to read with the proper investigative\nattitude: \"I have had them tell me (for example) that they were\ncompletely baffled when a scene they had read was described\ndifferently, later in the story, by one of the characters who took\npart in it; because I had not told them, 'This man's lying,' it had\nnever occurred to them that he might be.\" Though Wolfe does not\nexplicitly state it in so many words, the idea here is one of fiction\nnot simply as a given story, but as a collection of clues or evidence.\nRather than passively accepting a given narrative, the Wolfe reader is\nexpected to make logical connections and to consider \"who would do\nthat?\" This idea of fiction as the clues to a mystery is presumably\nkey to understanding why so many of Wolfe's works are \"explained\" in\nprefatory matter or a postscript. PANDORA BY HOLLY HOLLANDER mentions\nWolfe's editor, David Hartwell, and explains how Gene Wolfe's name\ncame to be on Holly's story (with suitable improvement by Wolfe, of\ncourse). The Latro books are presented as Wolfe's translations of\nancient Greek scrolls; Severian's narrative is, again, Wolfe's\ntranslation of a found artifact. Even stories that do not give an\nexplanation for why Gene Wolfe is presenting this \"evidence\" to us are\noften similarly documentary: \"Seven American Nights\" is wrapped in a\nframing device that transforms the story itself into a piece of\nevidence collected by a \"detective\" in reporting to his client.\n\n(more to come, hunting for the \"one must by lying quote\" and\nconsidering if I want to move the discussion that's about to follow)\n\t\n\nRough Outline:\n\nI. The Professionals (Explicit Detective Fiction):\n\n 1. \"Slaves of Silver\" / \"The Rubber Bend\"\n Wolfe as detective fiction fan\n 2. PANDORA BY HOLLY HOLLANDER\n Wolfe as Carolyn Keene\n 3. \"Cherry Jubilee\"\n 4. \"The Detective of Dreams\"\n \"Let us now proclaim the mystery of faith\"\n 5. FREE LIVE FREE\n (not sure if this belongs here)\n\nII. The Amateurs\n\n 1. PEACE\n \"Solving\" the mystery of stories\n 2. \"Alien Stones\"\n The mystery of the alien\n 3. THE FIFTH HEAD OF CERBERUS\n A possible exception to the rule\n 4. The Soldier Books\n Mysteries of the ancient world (and memory as a puzzle)\n 5. THE BOOK OF THE NEW SUN\n Severian as detective\n 6. THE BOOK OF THE LONG SUN\n Silk as Father Brown; the priest as detective\n 7. THE BOOK OF THE SHORT SUN\n Horn as detective; \"there are those who enjoy\n mysteries for their own sake; I try to eliminate mystery\n whenever possible\" (paraphrase, don't have the book with me\n at the moment); IGJ's mysteries\n\nIII. The Wolfe Reader as Detective\n\nIV. Theological Significance\n (A glass darkly)\n\n[1] Wolfe, Gene. STOREYS FROM THE OLD HOTEL. New York: Tor. 1988. xiii.\n\n[2] http://www.scifi.com/transcripts/gwolfe.txt\n\n[3] " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-08-16T08:57:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's favorite Nero Wolfe novels", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alex quoted from PANDORA:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Holly mentions Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe, commenting that when\npeople read mysteries \"they pick detectives they like best by\npeculiarities.\" She elaborates: \"Nero Wolfe's fat, three\npoints; Sherlock Holmes shoots dope, that's seven.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This explains why Nero Wolfe is GW's favorite. Given GW's love of playing\ngames with his name (wolf motifs, the narrator of FIFTH HEAD, etc.), his\npersonal detective rating must go something like this:\n\n\"Nero Wolfe has my last name, seventy-five points.\"\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2001-08-17T00:28:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Gene Wolfe's favorite Nero Wolfe novels", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 3:47 PM -0700 8/15/01, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nHere's another bit of trivia that I've stumbled upon in correspondence with\nGene Wolfe. Maybe someone can use it as an inspiration to write about Gene\nWolfe and genre mysteries?\n\nGene Wolfe ranks the following as the best (not in any order):\nTOO MANY WOMEN\nBEFORE MIDNIGHT\nTHE LEAGUE OF FRIGHTENED MEN\nCHAMPAGNE FOR ONE\nTHE FINAL DEDUCTION\nIF DEATH EVER SLEPT\nPLOT IT YOURSELF\nTHE DOORBELL RANG\n\nHe ranks the worst as:\nTHE BLACK MOUNTAIN\nFER-DE-LANCE" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I pretty much agree with the above, except that I would include \n_Counterfeit for Murder_ in the best category." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some while ago I had the madcap notion of reading, for the first time, some\nNero Wolfe novels (all by Rex Stout, I hasten to add: Nero is the hero),\nand (here's the madcap part) I was going to read them in order of\npublication." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't say the notion of reading a series of books in order of \npublication madcap; it is the way I prefer to read multiple books by \nany author, if I have the opportunity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well! First one is FER-DE-LANCE, and no sir, I didn't think it was very\ngood. After a month or two, I read the next one, THE LEAGUE OF FRIGHTENED\nMEN, and it was much better! I mentioned this to Gene Wolfe and he gave me\nhis list." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "_Fer-De-Lance_ is the first of the Nero Wolfe novels and the worst, I \nagree. I have read all of the Nero Wolfe books (there are over 30 of \nthem) more than once. I guess you'd have to call me a fan of the \nseries. I think most of them are good and some are very good indeed.\n\nFor anyone who has read any of these books in the past and enjoyed \nthem or anyone who thinks they sound interesting, I highly recommend \nthe new TV series based on the books which is on the A & E cable \nnetwork. The good news: these shows are very well done. The bad news: \nthe first season is over and I have no idea when the programs will be \nrepeated.\n\nThe actor who plays Nero Wolfe, Maury Chaykin, was once suggested \n(tongue in cheek and not by name) as Baldanders in a long ago attempt \nto cast a movie based on _The Book of the New Sun_." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley" } ] } ] }