{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2796",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 2796,
    "subject": "OT: Bladerunner and Planet of the Apes",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 2,
    "first": "2001-08-21T13:18:52+00:00",
    "last": "2001-08-21T16:27:09+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0030-0655@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi",
        "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com"
      },
      "date": "2001-08-21T13:18:52+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) OT: Bladerunner and Planet of the Apes",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Nutria wrote:\nGo for it. I'm interested. I found the Disney-Pinocchio twists interesting,\nbut I thought Bladerunner addressed the fundamental issue better."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "In light of this year's \"Planet of the Apes\" fiasco (hey, you all know me,\nI'm rabidly against remakes--and I was never a huge fan of the Apes\nfranchise, either--so I was quite opposed to seeing this year's PotA, even\nthough I like much of Tim Burton's stuff.  But then there was the San\nFrancisco Chronicle's rave review, with little man jumpping out of his\nseat, and a weekend day I simply had to stay out of the house . . . ) I\nhave a new wild theory about sf films as a continuum, related to the\noriginal \"Planet of the Apes\" and \"Bladerunner.\"\n\nThis is it: PotA comes from a French novel (I read it ages ago), and\npresumably it is therefore an outgrowth of the experience of the French\nEmpire in 20th century decline (mainly I'm thinking of Algeria, but just\nfor black/white racial tension throw in equatorial possessions, too); the\noriginal American film, being American, was taken as a polarization of\nblack/white USA, and PotA tries, however naively/badly, to show that sfnal\n\"otherness\" by saying, \"well yes, there is racial tension/inequality, but\nwhat if the different `races' really were different species?\" which\nunfortunately (complicated themes like this often encompass their opposite)\nhas at least a bit of the obverse: \"White supremacists are right: all the\nnon-whites are sub-human.\"\n\n(John Crowley tangent: which is another thing I have always found shocking\nabout BEASTS--it is a post-PotA work that plays the race card almost as\nstrongly as the new PotA does.  And new PotA is cringeworthy in this\nregard, although as far as the plot goes it is interesting in how it is\nsomewhat closer to the original French novel.)\n\nSo there you have PotA.\n\nThen there is another novel, DO ANDROIDS DREAM OF ELECTRIC SHEEP?  This\nnovel really is the sfnal otherness, where slaves are now androids of\ninitially ambiguous humanity . . . but in the not-exactly-happy end, the\nambiguity resolves into \"they ain't human\" and the \"civil rights for\nandroids\" card has been used by the androids as a tool to manipulate\nmentally defective humans.\n\nThe movie \"Bladerunner\" is quite the opposite of its source text, saying\n\"No, androids are just as human as humans--and look, I'm eloping with one\nright now,\" and it suddenly seemed to me that it was done this way as a\nreaction to/apology for the civil rights insensitivity/naivete of the\noriginal PotA.\n\nAnd the new PotA (perhaps reacting to \"Bladerunner\"?) is vile on the race\nissue.  (It is also horrible wrt space vehicles/space travel, but that's\nanother rant.)  A more nuanced approach, after jettisoning all the American\nphrases (from \"separate but equal\" through to Rodney King's famed\nsoundbite), might have been to examine how the \"apes\" all manage to live\ntogether when they are not all the same species.  Even hire a zoologist\nconsultant: are hybrids possible (chimp/gorilla, chimp/orangutang,\ngorilla/orangutang) in real life, and are they sterile like mules?  (This\nwould inject a Vancean element.)  Explore the \"otherness\" that is already\n=there=, for crying out loud!\n\n=mantis="
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0030-0656@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "James Jordan",
        "address": "jbjordan4 at home.com"
      },
      "date": "2001-08-21T16:27:09+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) OT: Bladerunner and Planet of the Apes",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0030-0655@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Mantith ranteth:\n\nA more nuanced approach, after jettisoning all the American"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "phrases (from \"separate but equal\" through to Rodney King's famed\nsoundbite), might have been to examine how the \"apes\" all manage to live\ntogether when they are not all the same species."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Hey! Where'd all those other kinds of apes come from? And the horses too? \nDid I miss something?\n\nNutria (who probably missed something, or else this flick has a gaping hole \nin it)"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}