{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/2797", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 2797, "subject": "tolkien, platonism, mythology", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2001-08-21T17:41:55+00:00", "last": "2001-08-22T13:13:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan", "address": "meliza at ocf.berkeley.edu" }, "date": "2001-08-21T17:41:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) tolkien, platonism, mythology", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nigel Price wrote:\nSo: the physical world as a reflection of divine reality, myths as the\nrecurring patterns whereby the physical world reflects that greater reality,\nand myths as symbollic statements of enduring psychological truths." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The way you phrased this immediately reminded me of Tolkien's idea of\nsub-creation: any myth-creation, by virtue of being an act of\ncreation, must and will reflect divine reality. In fact I think\nTolkien goes on record to say that reading and writing mythology is a\nsurer way to discover the truth about the world than philosophical\nspeculation.\n\nAs you say, myths deal with archetypes of human thought and behavior.\nIf in fact the world and human nature are created as a function\nof some divine principle, then a myth that accurately portrays those\narchetypes, that mimics the physical and psychological world, will be\n(a) interesting for a long period of time to a lot of people and (b)\ncontain true insight into the more enduring causes of the universe.\nAnd because the myth-maker in essence seizes upon the divine, creative\nprinciple in order to create the myth he (or she, more likely) has no\nchoice but to sub-create a world that is like in nature to the greater\ncreation. Or, as Severian says to Ceryx in UotNS: I doubt whether\nyou can seize the Increate's power without becoming like him.\n\nI wouldn't elaborate on this except that it seems like Tolkien's\naesthetic has gotten short shrift in the archives, and since we know\nthat Wolfe read a lot of Tolkien's friend and intellectual\ndisciple--certainly in this area--C.S. Lewis, this is undoubtedly a\nsource to take into consideration.\n\nAnd too it seems to have special bearing on Wolfe's detective fiction.\nI too think the detective story is a modern mythology--though I would\nargue, Nutria, that it's a Modern mythology that only realized an\nexplicit Christian element under Chesterton's tutelage. It's a\nmythology unique to modernity in particular, I think, because the most\nimportant element is the \"decypherability\" of the crime. Usually by\nthe tools of Reason, and Reason, personally exercised reason--whether\nyou are a layman with your own Bible, a (Baconian) scientist, a voter,\na consumer--is the raison d'etre of modernity. And of course as we\ngot increasingly gloomy about Reason the myth took new forms: Kafka,\nfor instance, turned the tale on its head with _The Trial_, gave us\nguilt with no crime and thus no solution.\n\nBut while Wolfe seems to like Kafka (_There Are Doors_ -- people\nobjected to the unbelievability of C-5 or whatever the alternative\nuniverse was called -- made a lot more sense to me as a Kafkaesque\nfairy-tale and something of a rebuttal to _The Castle_) I don't think he\nshares Kafka's gloominess. The detectives, professional and amateur,\nhave problems that they solve, usually with a combination of reason\nand metaphysics, and so of course Wolfe is trying to tell us that our\nown universe is similarly tractable. But the real genius of his\nsub-creation is that he doesn't only *tell* us that but presents us,\nhis readers, with our own puzzles to work out, giving us -- as Nigel\npointed out earlier -- exactly as much information as we need to do so.\n\n\nIs this a Platonic exercise? With my limited experience with Plato I am\ninclined to say no--Plato, for instance, thought poets and their shady\n(shadowy?) lyricisms should be banished from the Republic. On the other\nhand Plato does make reference to the gods and the Homeric legends, but\nthose references are clearly to be used only as exhibits in a\nthought-experiment: he wants his interlocutors to reason through why the\ngods are described as behaving in a certain manner. I suppose it all\ndepends on whether Wolfe thinks his stories are good, qua ipso, or merely\ntools to describe some higher reality -- whether that be our own \"real\"\nworld or something higher still. I certainly think the stories good in\ntheir own right.\n\nDan\n\n----\nvivez sans temps mort!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2001-08-22T10:42:26+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) tolkien, platonism, mythology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Dan wrote:\nAnd too it seems to have special bearing on Wolfe's detective fiction.\nI too think the detective story is a modern mythology--though I would\nargue, Nutria, that it's a Modern mythology that only realized an\nexplicit Christian element under Chesterton's tutelage. It's a\nmythology unique to modernity in particular, I think, because the most\nimportant element is the \"decypherability\" of the crime. Usually by\nthe tools of Reason, and Reason, personally exercised reason--whether\nyou are a layman with your own Bible, a (Baconian) scientist, a voter,\na consumer--is the raison d'etre of modernity. And of course as we\ngot increasingly gloomy about Reason the myth took new forms: Kafka,\nfor instance, turned the tale on its head with _The Trial_, gave us\nguilt with no crime and thus no solution." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Further support for your thesis: comparing traditional modernist detective\nstories with Umberto Eco's postmodern detective story, _The Name of the\nRose_. In which there is no pattern, no answer to the mystery, except\nwhat the detective creates. In which, by looking for a \"solution,\" to the\nmystery behind the deaths, the detective creates one that wasn't there.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at gs246.sp.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2001-08-22T13:13:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) tolkien, platonism, mythology", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Rostrum wrote:\nFurther support for your thesis: comparing traditional modernist\ndetective stories with Umberto Eco's postmodern detective story,\n_The Name of the Rose_. In which there is no pattern, no answer to\nthe mystery, except what the detective creates. In which, by\nlooking for a \"solution,\" to the mystery behind the deaths, the\ndetective creates one that wasn't there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just quoting this, but the whole detective discussion is\ninteresting. I agree that Wolfe's \"baptized\" detective fiction\nderives from Chesterton (_Nightside_ being practically Father Brown in\nspace, and I now wonder if the long climbing scenes don't owe a bit to\n_Manalive_), who was, despite his reputation for paradox and whimsy, a\ndevotee of reason in his own fashion. \"The Detective of Dreams\" is\nvery much a Chestertonized Poe tale, where Reason points the way to\nFaith. Wolfe's _realities_ are at heart of Aquinas rather than Kafka\nor Eco (there is an underlying truth, approachable at least by\nreason). The psychology of Wolfe's characters is considerably less\n\"solvable,\" I would argue--more the infinite depths and profundities\nof mystery as expounded by Augustine or Pascal than the rational\nenumeration of faculties of Aristotle and Aquinas. The motives of\nnumerous Wolfe characters remain hidden, guessable from the outside\n(and even with 1st person narrators, we are always outside) or dimly\nperceived through lies and self deceptions, but in the end not\namenable to something like Freud's detective work. Dorcas in BOTNS,\nthe narrator of \"Seven American Nights,\" and of course Dennis Alden\nWeer are examples (at least for me).\n\nAlso, (and this drifts into whorl territory) the Short Sun narrator\nspends quite a bit of time in detective mode, as Silk did in Long Sun\n(ask for an excorcist, get a detective for free, etc.). I don't have\nIGJ with me, but someone asks him about mystery, and he says something\nlike: \"I don't enjoy mysteries for their own sake. I try to clear up\nmysteries whereever I find them.\" I suspect this is Wolfe talking to\nthe reader as well, and that he thinks the clues are there to solve\nthe many (for me) still obscure aspects of the Short Sun books. I\nthink that one reason the revelation about identity made at the end of\nRttW is so explicit (if debatable in its exact meaning) is that Wolfe\nthinks the psychological mysteries are much harder to solve or even\nimpossible, and this one _must_ be seen by the reader for Short Sun to\nwork." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce" } ] } ] }