# Digest urth.v030.n185

*The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 20 Sep 2001*

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### Alice Turner
*20 Sep 2001, 21:04*

----- Original Message -----

> From: <urth-errors at lists1.ba.best.com>
> To: <urth at lists1.ba.best.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 11:53 AM
> Subject: Digest urth.v030.n185
> 
> -------------- BEGIN urth.v030.n185 --------------
> 
>     001 - "Matthew Davis" <matthew@ - "Love's Labour's Lost" in John
> Crowley's AEgypt
>     002 - James Jordan <jbjordan4@h - Re: (urth) In Glory Like Their
> Star (SPOILERS) F&SF Mag story
> 
> URTH Digest -- for discussion of Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other works
> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v030.n185.1 ---------------
> 
> From: "Matthew Davis" <matthew at michaelscycles.freeserve.co.uk>
> Subject: "Love's Labour's Lost" in John Crowley's AEgypt
> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:42:35 +0100
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> 
> I know this is primarily a space for discussion of Gene Wolfe, but
> since > John Crowley does seem to pop up quite regularly I though it might be
> a > worthwhile space to test out the observations below. I don't know if > anyone else has discussed the relationship of "Love's Labour's Lost"

to > John Crowley's "Aegypt" - it seems obvious to me but I haven't seen it

> mentioned in any of the reviews or essays - so if all of the below is
> well known then I apologise for wasting your time.
> 
> On the surface, Crowley's only use of LLL is for the title of Kraft's
> autobiography and to acknowledge the origins of that title. This all > occurs within the consciousness of Rosie, and the only things they
> evoke > for her are own depression, forlornness and sense of solitude. If you
> didn't otherwise know you might think LLL is a tragedy, from such a > deliberate misreading of what is actually a comedy. Although a comedy
> that is almost very nearly a problem play.
> 
> I
> 
> If we look at the plot, we can see a use similar to that Crowley makes
> of "the Solitudes" as an organising principle: a group of > scholars/knights retreat from the world, makes vows of celibacy and > forswear love so that they may concentrate on their studies that will
> bring them fame and triumph over death and time. Of course the real > world breaks in upon when they fall in love, and their experience at
> the > hands of the objects of their desire leaves them compromised and their
> vaunted intellectualism humiliated. Sounds a little like Pierce, yes?
> Most commentators point out that that the movement of the play is
> about > leaving off self-deceptions in a world of enclosed artificiality to > enter into wider perspective of reality. Of course, this is a > fundamental narrative pattern, and since in its philosophical form as
> "gnosis" this is what "Aegypt" is all about I can't really argue that
> Crowley is drawing particularly upon this. But it's certainly more > advanced than what one would expect to find in a comedy. And that it
> is > a comedy is important, with its connotations of spring time and the > pastoral. In his treatment of Blackbury Jambs and the Faraway Hills it
> is evident that Crowley is imbuing these locations with the qualities
> of > Elizabethan pastoral. LLL for a pastoral comedy has an advanced
> quality > of knowingness, where the obvious literary artificiality of its plot
> and > the characters conceptions of themselves is transcended by
> acknowledging > genuine mortification and introducing a cyclicality into the lives of
> its protagonists - the vows that lead to farce repeat themself as, if
> not tragedy, then as an experience of some pain - tying its > protagonists' development into the forthcoming year with a more > complicated and emotionally resonant reality. In his final lecture, > Crowley uses Barr to make it quite explicit that he is drawing upon 
> Elizabethan storytelling techniques of repetition to induce meaning.

Of > all Shakespeare's plays, LLL has probably the least action - it is a > comedy of contemplation in set pieces progressing by its protagonists

> appearances and reappearances in different but very formal
> combinations. > We know from "Novelty" Crowley conceives of "Aegypt" in terms
> influenced > by "Euphes" (LLL is certainly a satire on Euphuism), and indeed
> without > its very formal elements of themes, scenes, characters and their > thoughts repeating the whole novel would be impenetrable.
> 
> Finally, the last third of the play revolves around how each of the > suitors is fooled into wooing the wrong woman. The breaking of their > vows and quibbling over their consciences is made rather ridiculous

when > they are fooled into making suits to the wrong women, although there
is > still pathos in their predicament. Just as Pierce's debates of > conscience are still valid even though he has confused the two Roses.

> And the play ends uncertain as to whether the suitors will win their > women.
> 
> II
> 
> Let's look at the only obvious Crowley makes of LLL. Kraft's > autobiography is titled "Sit Down, Sorrow" later in the book we are > given the actual passage in LLL from which it originates:
> 
> "Welcome the sour cup of prosperity! 
> Affliction may one day smile again: and until then, 
> Sit down, sorrow."
> 
> However, this is wrong. The proper quote , in its fullness, should be:
> 
> "I suffer for the truth, sir: for true it is I was taken with > Jaquenetta, and Jaquenetta is a true girl; and therefore welcome the > sour cup of prosperity! Affliction may one day smile again; and till > then, sit THEE down, sorrow." - act I, sc.1, the final speech, since > line numbering varies for prose. (CAPS - my own)
> 
> So: the original passage is prose and the quotation is wrong. The only
> instance I can find of "Sit down, sorrow" is accompanied by the same > cod-versification, and it is here: > http://www.johndee.org/charlotte/Chapter14/14p1.html as an epigraph
> used > in Charlotte Fell Smith's "John Dee" (1909). The assumption we may
> make > is that in his researches Kraft/Crowley has taken this particular
> quote > from this particular biography of Dee, where this particular chapter > relates Dee's and Talbot's time in Bohemia. Of course it may be
> Crowley > and Smith are using the same edition of LLL, but a quick browse
> through > various editions and their editorial commentary in my local library > (which holds a lot of reserve stock for the RSC) didn't turn up a
> single > instance of this particular version.
> 
> III
> 
> One of the foundations of LLL criticism is that the character of > "Holofernes" represents John Florio, and since then other characters
> and > dialogue have been identified as various Elizabethan notables and > touching upon current events with the entire play as a satire on the > school of Walter Raleigh. In particular, the play is a locus for

people > trying to connect Shakespeare to Giordano Bruno. Florio was an
associate > of Bruno's when he was in England and the character of "Berowne" has > often been identified as being in some degree based upon Bruno - the > extensive use of celestial imagery, the celebration of a vivifying > divine love, the extensive use of eye and visualisation imagery that
may > be derived from Bruno's art of Memory. Personally, I think this is all

> extremely tenuous at best - given that Francis A. Yates wrote a study
> of > LLL I'm sure that she has at some point examined these connections and
> come to a more definitive conclusion - but the point is not whether it
> is true, accurate, or even faintly provable but that this series of > Bruno-LLL associations is sufficiently long-standing to merit > consideration and therefore have influence.
> 
> How convincing any of the above is is debatable, but I thought it was
> interesting how on even brief examination LLL kept touching upon > important scenes, themes and characters in "Aegypt" and vice versa.
> 
> Matthew Davis
> 
> 
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> <P>I know this is primarily a space for discussion of Gene Wolfe, but
> since John 
> Crowley does seem to pop up quite regularly I though it might be a > worthwhile 
> space to test out the observations below. I don&#8217;t know if anyone
> else has 
> discussed the relationship of "Love&#8217;s Labour&#8217;s Lost" to

John > Crowley&#8217;s "Aegypt" 

> &#8211; it seems obvious to me but I haven&#8217;t seen it mentioned
> in > any of the reviews 
> or essays - so if all of the below is well known then I apologise for
> wasting 
> your time.</P>
> <P>On the surface, Crowley&#8217;s only use of LLL is for the title of
> Kraft&#8217;s 
> autobiography and to acknowledge the origins of that title. This all > occurs 
> within the consciousness of Rosie, and the only things they evoke for
> her are 
> own depression, forlornness and sense of solitude. If you didn&#8217;t
> otherwise know 
> you might think LLL is a tragedy, from such a deliberate misreading of
> what is 
> actually a comedy. Although a comedy that is almost very nearly a > problem 
> play.</P>
> <P>I</P>
> <P>If we look at the plot, we can see a use similar to that Crowley > makes of 
> "the Solitudes" as an organising principle: a group of
> scholars/knights > retreat 
> from the world, makes vows of celibacy and forswear love so that they
> may 
> concentrate on their studies that will bring them fame and triumph
> over > death 
> and time. Of course the real world breaks in upon when they fall in > love, and 
> their experience at the hands of the objects of their desire leaves
> them >
> compromised and their vaunted intellectualism humiliated. Sounds a > little like 
> Pierce, yes? Most commentators point out that that the movement of the
> play is 
> about leaving off self-deceptions in a world of enclosed artificiality
> to enter 
> into wider perspective of reality. Of course, this is a fundamental > narrative 
> pattern, and since in its philosophical form as "gnosis" this is what
> "Aegypt" 
> is all about I can&#8217;t really argue that Crowley is drawing > particularly upon 
> this. But it&#8217;s certainly more advanced than what one would
> expect > to find in a 
> comedy. And that it is a comedy is important, with its connotations of
> spring 
> time and the pastoral. In his treatment of Blackbury Jambs and the > Faraway Hills 
> it is evident that Crowley is imbuing these locations with the
> qualities > of 
> Elizabethan pastoral. LLL for a pastoral comedy has an advanced
> quality > of 
> knowingness, where the obvious literary artificiality of its plot and
> the 
> characters conceptions of themselves is transcended by acknowledging > genuine 
> mortification and introducing a cyclicality into the lives of its > protagonists &#8211; 
> the vows that lead to farce repeat themself as, if not tragedy, then
> as > an 
> experience of some pain &#8211; tying its protagonists&#8217; > development into the 
> forthcoming year with a more complicated and emotionally resonant > reality. In 
> his final lecture, Crowley uses Barr to make it quite explicit that he
> is 
> drawing upon Elizabethan storytelling techniques of repetition to
> induce >
> meaning. Of all Shakespeare&#8217;s plays, LLL has probably the least
> action &#8211; it is a 
> comedy of contemplation in set pieces progressing by its
> protagonists 
> appearances and reappearances in different but very formal
> combinations. > We know 
> from "Novelty" Crowley conceives of "Aegypt" in terms influenced by > "Euphes" 
> (LLL is certainly a satire on Euphuism), and indeed without its very > formal 
> elements of themes, scenes, characters and their thoughts repeating
> the > whole 
> novel would be impenetrable.</P>
> <P>Finally, the last third of the play revolves around how each of the
> suitors 
> is fooled into wooing the wrong woman. The breaking of their vows and
> quibbling 
> over their consciences is made rather ridiculous when they are fooled
> into 
> making suits to the wrong women, although there is still pathos in
> their >
> predicament. Just as Pierce&#8217;s debates of conscience are still > valid even though 
> he has confused the two Roses. And the play ends uncertain as to
> whether > the 
> suitors will win their women.</P>
> <P>II</P>
> <P>Let&#8217;s look at the only obvious Crowley makes of LLL. > Kraft&#8217;s autobiography is 
> titled "Sit Down, Sorrow" later in the book we are given the actual > passage in 
> LLL from which it originates:</P>
> <P>"Welcome the sour cup of prosperity! <BR>Affliction may one day
> smile > again: 
> and until then, <BR>Sit down, sorrow."</P>
> <P>However, this is wrong. The proper quote , in its fullness, should
> be:</P>
> <P>"I suffer for the truth, sir: for true it is I was taken with > Jaquenetta, and 
> Jaquenetta is a true girl; and therefore welcome the sour cup of > prosperity! 
> Affliction may one day smile again; and till then, sit THEE down, > sorrow." &#8211; act 
> I, sc.1, the final speech, since line numbering varies for prose.

(CAPS > &#8211; my 

> own)</P>
> <P>So: the original passage is prose and the quotation is wrong. The > only 
> instance I can find of "Sit down, sorrow" is accompanied by the
> same 
> cod-versification, and it is here: </FONT><A 
> href="http://www.johndee.org/charlotte/Chapter14/14p1.html"><FONT 

size=2>http://www.johndee.org/charlotte/Chapter14/14p1.html</FONT></A>
<> FONT 

> size=2> as an epigraph used in Charlotte Fell Smith&#8217;s "John
> Dee" > (1909). The 
> assumption we may make is that in his researches Kraft/Crowley has
> taken > this 
> particular quote from this particular biography of Dee, where this > particular 
> chapter relates Dee&#8217;s and Talbot&#8217;s time in Bohemia. Of > course it may be Crowley 
> and Smith are using the same edition of LLL, but a quick browse
> through > various 
> editions and their editorial commentary in my local library (which
> holds > a lot 
> of reserve stock for the RSC) didn&#8217;t turn up a single instance
> of > this 
> particular version.</P>
> <P>III</P>
> <P>One of the foundations of LLL criticism is that the character of > "Holofernes" 
> represents John Florio, and since then other characters and dialogue > have been 
> identified as various Elizabethan notables and touching upon current > events with 
> the entire play as a satire on the school of Walter Raleigh. In > particular, the 
> play is a locus for people trying to connect Shakespeare to Giordano > Bruno. 
> Florio was an associate of Bruno&#8217;s when he was in England and
> the > character of 
> "Berowne" has often been identified as being in some degree based upon
> Bruno &#8211; 
> the extensive use of celestial imagery, the celebration of a vivifying
> divine 
> love, the extensive use of eye and visualisation imagery that may be > derived 
> from Bruno&#8217;s art of Memory. Personally, I think this is all > extremely tenuous at 
> best - given that Francis A. Yates wrote a study of LLL I&#8217;m sure
> that she has at 
> some point examined these connections and come to a more definitive > conclusion &#8211; 
> but the point is not whether it is true, accurate, or even faintly > provable but 
> that this series of Bruno-LLL associations is sufficiently
> long-standing > to 
> merit consideration and therefore have influence.</P>
> <P>How convincing any of the above is is debatable, but I thought it
> was >
> interesting how on even brief examination LLL kept touching upon > important 
> scenes, themes and characters in "Aegypt" and vice versa.</P>
> <P>Matthew Davis</P></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
> 
> ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C13F97.C133E5E0--
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> 
> 
> --------------- MESSAGE urth.v030.n185.2 ---------------
> 
> From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at home.com>
> Subject: Re: (urth) In Glory Like Their Star (SPOILERS) F&SF Mag story
> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:24:17 -0500
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> In-Reply-To: <200109010031.f810VRc48532 at lists1.ba.best.com>
> 
> Only one thought, and it's probably wrong:
> 
> At 07:28 PM 8/31/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>> Just read this in the Oct/Nov issue of Fantasy & Science Fiction
>> magazine I
>> got in the mail yesterday.  Always excited to see a new Wolfe story
>> anywhere.
>> 
>> Once again the more Wolfe stories that come out the less chance there
>> is of
>> me *thinking* I fully understand them.  I doubt I've had that feeling
>> since
>> the early 80s.
>> 
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>> 
>> S
>> P
>> A
>> C
>> E
>> 
>> 
>> I felt shock when within the first page I had figured out that this
>> was a
>> story of aliens (misinterpreted as gods) visiting earth, so I knew
>> Gene was
>> giving that away and the real mysteries were to come.
>> 
>> And once again I have mostly questions that I hope others here can
>> shed
>> light on for me (smile).
>> 
>> 1.  Any idea what the passage on p.110 means?  "Our long voyage
>> through
>> space impressed them.  I doubt they grasped its length, for their
>> concepts
>> of the five they call "time" are muddled, and so eroneous that they
>> cannot
>> be termed primitive with any precision.  They will be primitive,
>> perhaps,
>> when the sunlight reaches them on this place."
>> 
>> I don't understand the word "five" compared to time.
>> 
>> I don't understand where this place that sunlight will reach is to
>> try to
>> determine when he things earthlings will reach primitive status.

>          The light from his own home sun, which he has outrun? Or are
> we in
> a nuclear winter?

>> 2.  What is the deal about the earth not being a sphere because the
>> desert
>> is a flat spot where gravity works differently?  Is the desert the
>> mysterious hidden "Eden" man is still searching for?  Something on a
>> different plane where gravity, time, etc. work differently that the
>> alien
>> could see but man can't?

>          Is the "flat" area the site of a nuclear detonation?
> 
> Nutria
> 
> 
> 
> --------------- END urth.v030.n185 ---------------

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